M Box Users Options

[nlowther]

Hey all you MBox users out there.
I want the to get the Mbox 'cause Pro tools is great for what I want . Only thing is Ive been toid by some people that it cant run Virtual Instruments without noticeable latency and chews up processor speed real quick when adding effects.
Tell me its not true, tell me simplicity rules and keep away from the maze that is Logic.

[arvidtp]

Unfortunately I can't tell you it's not true. Simplicity - humpf! things would be a lot Simpler with the mbox if digidesign had not tried to go-it-alone and make their own inferior drivers instead of using the awesome coreaudio architecture already in mac os x that gets realtime processing priority always. Even their coreaudio driver for other apps is a "hair-pin implementation" that makes it difficult to use with other software and break with each major new release of OS X. why? But pro tools itself is great for multitracking and sound design I think.

[Lord Pasty]

Hrmmm... I'm thinking about getting an MBox. (It would be a hella lot cheaper than going out and trying to get the 02 Rack!) What computers are you guys using the MBox with?

[nlowther]

I didnt know about the driver issues, maybe its something to do with the software war going on between Avid and Apple on the DV front. Its more than a little annoying that you have to fork out another $1000 au for the OMF import option with Pro Tools LE. Maybe Logic is the better option for composing, wih no hardware reliancy and no latency issues.

[arvidtp]

Powerbook G4 1.25GHz 15", OS 10.3(.4 now). I admit that I should get more RAM for optimal performance, but still it should be better than it is, and at least be stable and all...

The Driver issue is that Digi uses their own "Direct IO" drivers that are not part of the operating system, but are based precariously on extra kernel extensions - that is so an OS 9-like thing to do. That is why it keeps breaking when Apple updates OS X, when other software like reason, logic, etc keeps going strong. I don't think it has to do with DV, because it is more a IO thing than a file format thing. But I'm not knowledgeable in the video thing (I like and can use FCP, but couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing when I tried Avid!). And FCPro could use the Mbox for output in theory. However that brings me to another point:

Myself, and several other computer musicians I know who have been around a lot longer than I, feel that Digidesign wants to LIMIT the use of their hardware with other software - to make it as difficult as possible for you to try software other than Pro TOols and possibly realize that it is not all there is to making music on a computer, while still being able to say that they make compatible products. Why else the "single client" nature of the mbox/001/002 coreaudio drivers, when Digi as a big company is completely capable of making a good, normal, multi-client, stable coreaudio driver? Without you having to add apps to a list before using them, with some of them either not working at all or crashing 30 sec after launch because of Mbox (i.e. stable and respected software like reason)? And for goodness sakes the lowest latency on that driver is 512 samples! I can't very well use that to perform with for the instruments I build in MaxMSP! I'm really frustrated with them. Pro TOols is great software for what it is (except when it crashes) but the limitations it and its hardware dependencies impose get me really frustrated.

Sorry to have to bash Digi, but I think its a shame for those of us who want to experiment with other stuff besides what Digi wants us to use. Maybe you will have better luck with the Mbox drivers as far as stability, but I think I know how to maintain a mac, and the limitations I have stated are real.

[Lord Pasty]

This info distresses me!!! The MBox is such a price conscious option. Of course, I know that Cubase is known to lag as well when you use too many VSTi's without the proper porcoessing speed and RAM, but it's a LOT more expensive if you ad it up...

What I'm wondering is this: if you're using something lke Logic Pro (which does use the CoreAudio drivers, obviously), would you maybe have better luck... *?* (Which I now realize was already mentioned, but it's worth the rehashing).

I'm realizing that I'm actually a little green... all over again. Drat. For me, I intend to go out and buy something that can help me do something I've never be able to do before. Sequence with my Korg and have a few other instruments and effects at my disposal, plus be able to record. I'm terrified of going out and spending a whole lot of money and then not be able to do what I need to. I mean, if I go out and realize the MBox ain't what I need, I have to go out and buy new hardware in addition to software. I completely think that what Digi is doing is a little like attempted monopoly, Arvidtp. I'm wondering if it might be smarter to wait? The question I think becomes (for me, at least) do I buy the MBox and use Logic Pro later on... or go all out for Cubase right now? I think Cubase would be a mistake from what I've read about it laying low processor speed. Thoughts, all? I need it! ( Apologies for the rant! )

[macyu]

Yeah I also hear to stay away from Cubase.. I dunno but the cool thing I'd have to agree about the mbox is that the software and hardware both come with it.. cause all other packages make you get software, then hardware. The solution I'm planning to settle on right now is Logic Express (cost reasons) and a sorta nice-ish interface.. which I've yet to find that fits my bills... M-Audio stuff seems unstable, emagic ones seem stable and low latency but only unbalanced I/O, MOTU, Metric Halo pretty expensive..

good luck!

[Lord Pasty]

Exactly, macyu. It seems like it would be best to get something along the lines of the MBox and have something good to work with, and then try to taylor around it. The problem I'm still having is that if I have to go out and buy Logic Pro at some point, my costs are going to come to a point that I wonder if I shouldn't go some completely different way for recording (than ProTools).

I suppose that no matter how thin you slice it; with recording, it's live and learn!

[MrDee]

I did just that a while ago for uni... i bought a Mac and an MBox.

Now whilst it is very good for recordings and mixing, it is frustrating due to the fact that it will only let you have 1 use of the MBox at any one time (is that a limitation of the USB speed though, rather than driver issues?). If you were thinking of composing with ProTools though, FORGET IT! Go with Logic or Digital Performer. I've spent months trying to find workarounds, and ProTools is simply moody. On top of that, it may seem like a cheaper alternative, and the Pres from focusrite are indeed great, however remember that if you want SMPTE time, you need to buy an addon. If you want to buy plugins, you need to buy an USB key thing. If you want to have OMF import, that's another grand. It's rediculous. It's like a modular coffee machine. You buy the core, and then you have to buy everything else. Not value in my eyes, when all the other sequencers offer so much better value for money in the long end.

Why do all the studios use it then one might ask? It is simple to use, yes, but it's because they are used to the platform, and don't want to waste time and money moving onto another sequencer. Quite a few seem to be moving onto Logic Pro now though... Here's hoping that Apple/Emagic gives Digidesign a well needed run for their money in the years to come.

[arvidtp]

Bravo MrDee. I concur.

The single client thing is just one of Digi's artificial limitations. You could in theory use as many apps as you want at once through a USB audio interface because no matter what, Coreaudio mixes it all down to 2 channels (or however many the box wants) before sending it out.

I agree also about the composing thing. I gotta find something better. Any suggestions. I am thinking logic (express?)

If you want to use more than one app with the Mbox coreaudio driver and keep others like reason from crashing, there is a free workaround - Jack Tools for OS X. And it does a lot more than just that - you should have it regardless, if you use OS X for music, but it is annoying to have to use sometimes when you just want quick functionality.

Oh and while we are on the topic I love the Mbox "feature" of not supporting sleep. If you have even iTunes connected to the Mbox and then sleep the machine, bye bye iTunes when you wake it up. (Unexpected Quit) Thank goodness for OS X protected memory or that thing would cause me to restart 10 times a day!

[MrDee]

Lol while i'm on the issue...

True true true, if the signal is simply mixed down into two channels, there is no excuse. Other than trying to be the microsoft, mcdonnalds and coca-cola of the audio world.

Yes i've noticed that with the sleep and iTunes. Also, on a mate's machine Virtual PC 6.0 simply stopped after the MBox was installed. His machine no longer recognises the Windows CD! I don't know about other people here, but i'm sick of having limitations placed and 'can't do this or that'. Have to check out that link to Jack Tools. Thanks for that. Composing wise - Motu's DP is a serious contender - apparently it's what a lot of film composers are using on the mac platform atm.

[Lord Pasty]

Well, I still have a problem here, if I may again bend everyone's ears...


I read somewhere that Logic Express could be upgraded to Pro for no more than the difference in the cost... that would make Express the obvious choice to me, EXCEPT that I hear it has fairly difficult documentation. That's tough for me, because I *will* be a noob to recording, even though I've sequenced for some time.

I also still like the amount of software that comes with the MBox bundle. Reason especially, where as I would have to go out and buy Reason to use it with Express. VSTi support may become a big deal for me, but I don't know. I'm mostly prolly going to us my Korg and Reason/VSTi. One big thing is that I hate my drumkits on the Korg. (Well, I like one of them, but it's pretty damned limited.

[MrDee]

Note that the version of reason you get with the bundle is actually a cutdown version... reason adapted.

In adapted, you get a few nnxts, one or two malstroms, this and that, and that's it. You can't actually add or delete modules and so on (I use the full version, so this is from what i've seen at uni) so if you were thinking of using that to its full capabilities, you're going to want to upgrade to the full version in the end anyways...

If logic does have that deal, then thats a MAJOR strength point - also it does come with some pretty decent synths of its own as plugins (not sure which ones with the express version though).

Ahh what the hell... flip a coin!

[Lord Pasty]

HAHA! That's what it comes down to, I suppose. Actually, It's all going to come down to whatever my local retailer has in stock.

[nlowther]

Well I suppose from what yo've all said Logic Express and a decent soundcard for $1000 aud, is head and shoulders above the Mbox for composing. And for video sound design, Mbox with the DV toolkit @ $2000 aud is the dogs bollocks. Horses for courses I guess

[arvidtp]

hey, its not all bad - things are looking up around here for a change - check out the Macmusic news: "Digi Coreaudio goes Multiclient!" A real coreaudio driver I think! Never thought it would happen. And just as this discussion was going on. Dunno how it works, downloading it NOW. Well maybe somebody was listening to people's rants on the Digi User Forums for once. We'll see how this works. I'm excited.

[Lord Pasty]

Arvid! Make sure to post on how things are going with the new driver!!! This could solve a lot of my buying issues. I'm still kinda stuck on Pro Tools. (I'm sure the reasons are obvious or have been stated...)

I wonder though.... would Logic Express run with the MBox HW? That could still be cool. Maybe the ultimate yet!

[lepetitmartien]

First checks on the new drivers in the FR forums are awesome

At last ! (grumble grumble)

If I understood well though, it's multiclient as long as you don't use Protools, then, with PT in use, it's monoclient.

[arvidtp]

For once the mbox coreaudio driver doesn't completely suck! Wow. This is a vast improvement. Software such as Reason no longer crashes always, and multiclient support means I can (almost) just set the mbox as default and have every app play/get sound though it, even for casual stuff. Works nicely with Jack OS X - no more strange need to open the prefs dialog before starting jack all the time. They finally listened to all the people complaining on the DIgi user forum I guess (i was one of many). My advice: if you haven't tried this, do so NOW. It is vastly better. And you don't have too much to lose - thats for sure.

There are still limitations, however. It does not work with some software that it never worked with, like Audacity, but who knows who's fault that is. Could very well be audacity. Seems like it has caused some software like iMovie to hiccup/crash, but nothing really reproducible. There seem to be lots of little bugs in iMovie 3, now that I am using it a lot, so again I dont know who's fault that is. And, as stated it is single-client when Pro Tools is active. And it doesn't reduce latency at all - a major complaint of mine. 512 samples is too large a buffer for certain things when performing, or even when recording using certain timing-critical software instruments like percussion-type stuff. I think I will still stick with my internal sound card (unfortunately) for performance, as it can go nicely to 64 samples latency, and use the mbox as analog pres for that. Also it still screws up (not crashes, but freezes audio IO until you quit all Digi Coreadudio-using apps and restart them it seems) if you put your mac to sleep while accessing the driver.

Another annoying thing I noticed, to be picky, is that whenever i restart, the Digi Coreaudio manager resets the buffer from 512 where I like it to 1024, disregarding my previous preference. As a fix I have written a simple applescript that uses UI scripting to open the Digi Coreaudio manager, switch to 512 and quit, and I have added it to my startup items. (I can post it on my site if anyone else has this issue and wants the script) That seems to do that trick, except sometimes (very rarely) it seems to randomly switch to 1024 when the driver is not used for a while and then used again. I haven't yet figured out what triggers that.

Good luck to all. The mbox may spend more years on my desk than I thought. Thanks Digi for getting it close to right this time.

[MrDee]

Yay! Digidesign has moved to the year 1999! How bout 2004 guys!?

The monoclient issue, although a welcome revision, is only the icing on the cake. They still have many things to look at before it's level with other devices. (One can always put the output of the mac and mbox into a little mixer, and have that go to the speakers - thus it wouldn't really bother you which system was using the audio for general use).

I haven't experienced the problem of latency reverting back to 1024 samples, perhaps its something in your preferences file?

Lol common digi... you can do it... 2ms latency.... common!

[abcdaniel]

I AgRee MrDee. Thank´s digi, but come on digi! Put the damn pro back in Pro Tools. Why not? People will stop buying digi consumer devices, if they limit our creativity. And the consumer level is where it´s at: The bedroom producers are already doing the nicest things, their nice things will eventually bring money, and that money won´t be spent on digi pro hardware either.

I´d love to run Pro Tools on par with other apps, using digi hardware. Why not?I like Pro Tools, i like mbox, but I also like many other apps and boxes. Bring the latency down, digi! 512?!? Digi, you are losing out on massive love, even though your love index has risen this last week.

[majn]

Yeah.

I'm using a G4 emac running ProTools and Logic Pro - with an MBox.

I also have a G4 just running Logic Pro - with a Hammerfall.

T the moment the latency on the MBox makes the system unworkable - on either Pro Tools or Logic.

Thinking of ditching Pro Tools and selling the MBox and getting a decent audio interface.

The only reason I stick with the ProTools system is because so many people bring me stuff that other people have recorded on ProTools - and want to work on them. And the first thing I have to do us convert this to Logic - for which I need Pro Tools to check out all the tempo settings, time stamps etc.

I know so many people who swear by ProTools - but - to be honest - give me Logic Pro any day.

It's about time Digi brought in a firewire interface to replace the MBox! Hopefully before I find myself shopping again.

M

[Jimmy Kansau]

Hello! I've had problems with kernels on my MacBook Pro 2.6 GHz Intel, 4GB Ram and the MBox 2. Every time the computer needs to be restarted it crashes because of a kernel caused by the MBox. I keep sending reports to apple but nothing has been suggested. Has anyone found a possible solution for this and, what are the consequences of frequent crashes?
Also, sometimes the sound stops coming out of the monitor or headphones even when signals are indicating sound production every time I use a virtual instrument such Sonic Synth 2. It seems like every time I load a preset it stops working. I have to quit pro-tools when this happens and it fixes the problem. Is there a better way around this, is there something I should be looking for in the set up? Please help!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

Jimmy

[Cdunn007]

Jimmy, I wish I had an answer, I have similar problems with a new MacBook Pro and my Mbox2. I can't even get sound into my Mac from the Mbox2 at all. And it also echoes music and desktop sounds all the time until I reboot or unplug the MBox2. I was trying to use Logic Pro to record instead but it doesn’t work either with my MBox2 it sees in preferences but again no sound. I have had it with DigiDesign. It took a year to finally do the update so it could run on the latest Mac OS and I still cant get it to work. Ugh. I may sell it and get another mid priced Pre-Amp. I tried calling them but didn’t get through and the web site is just a mess of information. I'll let you know what I find and hopefully someone more brilliant on this site can help. Blessings. Chris'

[Jimmy Kansau]

Chris, what a DRAG! I went through the exact same problem! I had to wait for the updates and such, even upgraded to pro-tools 8 (more money), it still will not work! Well, hopefully, like you said, someone will reply with a positive solution! Blessings to you too! JK

[BOsborne04]

I have had this exact same problem. I'm running an Intel iMac (Core Duo 2GHz, 2GB RAM) with an MBox2 Mini, and since I started using the MBox, I've had kernel panics and application crashed up the wazoo. Like many people, I thought the problem was with a number of other elements in my system. It was only after I tested and re-installed nearly everything else that I discovered that it was my MBox that was causing the problems all along. I found this thread on Digi's forum:

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=194592

Apparently this problem goes back over 2 years. It's a mystery as to whether it's Apple's or Digi's responsibility to fix, and neither company is speaking up about the issue. I actually joined MacMusic in the hopes of finding something in these forums about a possible fix. It seems like our only course of action is to just wait until "they" fix the problem.

--=Bryan

[Jimmy Kansau]

Thank you Brian for the link! How annoying is this? I noticed recently that the problem happens when the computer goes to sleep and wakes up. After that, if you have to restart or shut down your computer the crash happens. I tried unplugging the Mbox after I'm done with work before the computer goes to sleep and it seems to take care of the problem. Let me know if you notice anything different. Bye!

Jimmy