Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: hamard Thu 7 Nov 2002, 18:01

Hello,

I've got the following equipments:
- an imac with Pro Tools Free and Logic AUdio running under OS 9.2.2,
-a Yamaha DX7,
- a Midisport UNO 1*1 Midi Interface
- OMS 2.3.8

The Midi IN/OUT are OK but the issue is that I can't hear the DX7 on the Mac eventhought I connected its audio output to the audio input of the Mac?

The audio output of the DX7 works perfectly when I connect it to my stereo so the problem must be related to the configuration of the sequencers (which is not so well explained in the manuals...).

Thank in advance for your help!

Bye,

John

Posted by: formatj Thu 7 Nov 2002, 18:30

In logic you will have to set up an audio input object in the audio mixer.
What version of logic are you running?

Also make sure that you have set up logic to work with mac AV in your Audio Hardware and Drivers and that "software monitoring" is turned on.

Lastly make sure that in your Sound Control panel (in apple menu) that your Input is set to mic/line in not internal CD.

Let me know if this makes sense, I can go into more detail if needed.

format j

Posted by: Synthetic Fri 8 Nov 2002, 00:24

hmmm,,, what i noticed was you didn't mention what you are using for an audio interface, My first guess is that you have some how used adapters to connect the 1/4" ouput of the DX-7 to your 1/8" mic input and I am pretty sure that won't work. That input was designed mainly to work with computer microphones which have different signal levels and such and they don't accept just any input. At least you will need something like the $40 imic interface to get the DX-7 sound into computer but I don't recommend it personally as I have seen many unhappy users. I suggest looking into some audio interfaces such as the Emi 2/6 or M-Audio interface or MBox.

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Fri 8 Nov 2002, 00:55

Well I'm not shure what type of mac your using, but I have my mixer sound out running into my sound in of my iMac g3, and it works just fine. Try going to your sound control panel Choose sound in and check play through, also make sure that you have checked sound through on your recording program.

Posted by: hamard Mon 11 Nov 2002, 00:25

Hi,

Thank you all for your help : )
I'm running LA 4.8.1(or Pro Tools Free) and as Synthetic guessed, I use an adapters to connect the 1/4" ouput of the DX7 into the mic input of the imac.
I don't have any audio interface (too expensive...) so it seems that's the problem!

On Pro Tools guide (p.106) I've read that "the recorded Midi data plays back through the track's assigned instrument and channel".
So, it seems normal that while playing Midi tracks on the sequencer, there is no sound going out of the imac speakers (?).
In order to listen to Midi tracks I previously recorded, I unplugged the connection between the DX7 output and the sound input of the mac (via the adapter!), and directly connected the DX7 to my stereo.
It worked but is it it way to work with Midi tracks on Pro Tools and Logic?
I'm not so familiar with sequencers, if I would like to work with audio and midi tracks together (e.g. one track for my guitar, another one for the DX7) how shall I do?
Thanks again!

John

Posted by: damann Wed 13 Nov 2002, 01:27

hi hamard,

the idea with logic and protools is that you send midi information from your keyboard via a midi interface in order to record this information.
then you can send this information to a synth via the midi interface's out port to play it back(output of the dx7 goes into the mac's mic input). this way you can feed the mac sound output into your amp and leave it that way.
this isn't ideal, the mic input isn't going to give you a good sound, basically because the dx7 output is line level not mic level.
i suggest you download some free virtual instruments like crystal, muon tau, cesynth, neon, zr1&3, crazy diamond, dmi flute, free alpha and loads more! you can then play midi information (recorded with the dx7) back with these, set up on your audio instrument tracks in logic.
i hope this helps, post for more info...

Posted by: hamard Wed 13 Nov 2002, 11:17

Hi Damann,

The sound output of DX7 is connected to the mic input of the imac but it just doesn't sound from the Imac!
I also expected to have, at least, a poor signal and to enhance it via the internal preamp of my multitrack recorder...

Posted by: Levon River Wed 13 Nov 2002, 13:32

Check the length of male end of the adapter you're using to go into the Mac; check it against the plug of a Mac mic that works, if possible. The wrong length plug on the adapter will not properly connect with the insides of the input plug, and there is more than one length. On some computers Apple used some funky thing that you can find an adapter for, but it might take a little legwork.

If that doesn't work and isn't the problem, maybe invest in Griffin Technology's iMic (around 50 bucks) to at least get you going. That boosts the signal to where it needs to be.

Posted by: hamard Wed 13 Nov 2002, 14:54

Thanks for pointing this possible issue related to the plugs lengths.
I've got 2 similars adapters and there is no result with both. Since these are standard products I'm not really sure if this is really what I should focus on.
As Synthetic previously mentionned, I'm quite sure it's a pb of signal levels, but why???!!!!!
Apple computers are not expensive enough so that I should not need to invest in any audio card (I'm just talking about amateurs not professionals)?
Well, I should borrow an audio interface in a shop and see if it comes from this lack....that would be the easiest way to solve the problem.

Posted by: damann Thu 14 Nov 2002, 02:13

the point levon is making is the fact that on older macs, the mic input expects a custom apple 1/8th inch jack that's a few millimetres longer than your standard 1/8th inch jacks.
obviously, if this were to be the problem, your connectors just wouldn't be long enough to make the connection.
if this isn't the problem, 2 things...
1. i have witnessed such poor signals that they don't appear to exist until the file has been normalised. you could check if this is the case, or...
2. seems too obvious, but have you selected the internal mic as the sound input in your sound control panel? formatj asked you this but i didn't see a response from you to this question.
ultimately, i think you could do worse than follow levon river's advice, get an imic from griffin technologies! they're extremely cheap, and, although not great, get the job done.
keep posting m8...

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Thu 14 Nov 2002, 07:25

Did you make sure to check out the sound controll settings I mentioned before????
You should be able to hear sounds comming from your iMac whether you have a recording program running or not.

Posted by: hamard Thu 14 Nov 2002, 12:31

I've tried different settings in the sound control (external mic and sound in) but it didn't help!
After switching my imac on and before running any sequencer, I'm always taking care of checking this sound control (but I admit that it's not so obvious for beginners who care often wonder how to get sound!).

<1. i have witnessed such poor signals that they don't appear to exist until the file has been normalised. you could check if this is the case

Actually I would be happy to get at least a poor signal instead of no signal at all...
Damann, do you mean converting to .mid (e.g) by "normalised"?
Actually if I listen to the .mid file on quicktime (or whatever), I can hear the recorded midi tracks.
So basically, it's just a problem of real-time sound feedback .
You guys, how to you proceed actually?
Do you work with the sound feedback from the computer speakers or do you connect the sound output of your instrument (midi keyboard) to external speakers such as a stereo?
I think what I need is a good methodology for home recording....!!!! Not the ones from software developers or booksellers but from musicians like you !
Thanks in advance ; )

john

Posted by: Levon River Thu 14 Nov 2002, 13:25

Hamard, describe, please, exactly how many cords you have going from the DX-7 to your computer, and how many adapters of what kind are in the path.

We'll peel this right back to basics...

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Thu 14 Nov 2002, 13:50

Ok, now I know I'm sounding redundant but... While you were looking in your sound control panel, are you sure that the box next to the "Play sound through output device" is checked.

If it is, does the jack going into your computer look exactly like a headphone jack? Are you positive that the cable is not defective?

If all of the above is done, and you still can't hear your sound on your computer, then there is the posibility that the input jack on the computer itself is defective. In that case you will need an external sound card. I'd sugest a firewire audio interface, but if money is an issue, go for a USB one. Be aware that the USB audio interface will have more latancy than the firewire one. I'm not sure if you can use a extagy USB esternal sound card will work on a mac or not, but you might look into it. It is definatly not the best, but it should do.

Now then onto the question of how I procede exactly.....
I have every thing running into a Behringer 20 channel mixer. The sound out of the mixer into the iMac sound input. I'm using a midiman2x2 midi USB interface for sequencing. As far as listining to what I'm doing, I have one of the head phone jacks running to a stereo, the other has head phones connected to it. So I'm not using the speakers of the mac, but could. Some times I take the sound running to the stereo, and run it back into the mixer for mastering. In this case I uncheck the play through device command to keep from having a loop which causes really bad feedback!

Posted by: hamard Thu 14 Nov 2002, 23:48

No you're not redundant, you're just right to go into these details...
But unfortunately, I checked "Play sound through output device" and could hear the keyboard at this time (so the cable and mic input are OK...this was also confirmed by plugging a mic on the mic input and by connect the DX7 to my stereo using this cable).
So, after reflection, i'm quite convinced that the issue comes from the setup of the sequencers or the management of the audio in OS 9.2.2?

I would like to describe my connections once again:

The DX7 is connected to the imac (OS 9.2.2) via the Midiman UNO 1*1 and the audio output of the DX7 is connected to the mic input of the imac using a guitar cable and an adapter to make the connection to the imac possible.

Thanx again for your great help : )

Posted by: hamard Fri 15 Nov 2002, 00:21

Ouppps, another important point I forgot to indicate since the beginning:
On Pro Tools Free, i don't hear the D7 on the Midi track but on the audio track there is no problem.
Does it mean I always have to create a Midi and audio track so that I can hear the recording on the mac?
But if I modify the Midi recording, the audio track won't be modify so at the end i could not hear the new version of the midi track????
I'm quite sure I don't work with the sequencers in the right way !

Posted by: Levon River Fri 15 Nov 2002, 00:45

I haven't looked at PTFree since around the time it came out, but in ANY sequencer you have to make sure that the MIDI track:

A. Has MIDI note information on it--either recorded via MIDI, or input by hand, and
B. Is routed to the correct MIDI sound device (the DX-7), via the correct MIDI interface, and on the correct MIDI channel--meaning the one that your DX-7 is configured to receive on.

That's three "corrects" you've got to have correct.

And isn't OMS involved in all of this somewhere? That's like having Mr. Mxyzptlk negotiate peace in the Middle East. If you haven't set up your DX-7 in there, nothing's going to be on speaking terms with it. I'll let somebody who can talk about OMS without popping a vein walk you through that.

Once you have all the above configured, and the MIDI track playing your DX-7 like a piano-roll, then you can route the audio of your DX-7 to the input of any audio track, set it to record, and get a recorded audio version of what the DX-7 is playing. Is that about as clear as mud? Once it's an audio track, you can turn off the playback of the MIDI track, and add effects and whatever to the audio version.

At any time, if you want to change something, you can just edit the MIDI track and re-record it. It's more power than Nero had. Don't abuse it and do trance music.

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Fri 15 Nov 2002, 01:11

Ohhhh, I thought you were having audio problems!
What version of OMS are you running? I'd bet thats what the problem is. Until you get OMS set up and running in the test studio, you're dead in the water

Posted by: hamard Fri 15 Nov 2002, 10:22

I'm running OMS 2.3.8 but I've read somewhere that it's better to still use OMS 2.3.7 (?).
When I'm testing the OMS setup the midi in/out are OK ("Midi received!", the DX7 sounds when I play the virtual eyboard).

>Once you have all the above configured, and the MIDI track playing your DX-7 like a piano-roll, then you can route the audio of your DX-7 to the input of any audio track, set it to record, and get a recorded audio version of what the DX-7 is playing.


Do you virtually route the DX7 audio to the audio track on OMS or do you mean that I just have to create an audio track on which I can record the DX7 audio?


> Once it's an audio track, you can turn off the playback of the MIDI track, and add effects and whatever to the audio version.
At any time, if you want to change something, you can just edit the MIDI track and re-record it.


Could you please tell me how to turn off the playback of the Midi track?
So if I add effects on the audio track, can they be directly affected to the midi track too (and vice-versa)?
When you are satisfied with the results, which track do you usually keep, midi or audio?

Posted by: Levon River Fri 15 Nov 2002, 12:24

That. What you said. Yes, create an audio track, and make its source the audio input of your iMac--which is what the audio output of your DX-7 is *supposed* to be coming in through. Then put that track in "Record" mode and hit the darn Record button. Whatever is on the MIDI track (that is assigned to go out to the DX-7 on the correct channel) should then cause the DX-7 to commence music-making, the audio output of which should then start recording into the audio track you have in "Record" mode (with the iMac audio input as source).

Stop it when you've had all you can take.


One word: Mute.


One word: No.

They are two completely different classifications of data. MIDI information is essentially triggering information for modules that have an internal way of generating sounds, telling them what sounds to start generating, for how long, etc. (There is other information MIDI can carry, but that's another course.) MIDI contains no sound, just instructions.

Audio files are digital recordings of sound.

They are worlds apart, and the software audio effects you can add to a track (VST, etc.) are for affecting those digital recordings of sound (or live audio coming in), not MIDI.


Depends on what your application is. Some people don't record audio of their MIDI tracks at all, like with a multi-timbral synth playing different sounds on different channels, or several different MIDI sound devices playing together. They just record strictly unMIDIable stuff (vocals, guitar, sackbutt, daltry, whatever they choose), setting the mixes and effects they want on their synths/samplers that are playing back from the MIDI tracks, and then only record the output of the MIDI devices in the final mix, mixing it with the audio tracks then. (Same might go for a software synth/sampler in the session.)

I generally record everything that's MIDIed down to audio (once I'm happy with the MIDI stuff), then delete all the MIDI tracks and save AS a new session number. If I want to change something later, I can always go back to a version of the session that had the MIDI in it and pull a MIDI track in to further edit: lather, rinse, repeat.

Posted by: hamard Sun 24 Nov 2002, 01:12

I would like to thank you all for your help and the time you spent on my issue!
This week, I've tried to follow your explanations as well as possible to record from my DX7, actually I've done it this way:
Record the Midi piece on a Midi track
Edit the Midi track on the sequencer (e.g. change pitch) while listening to the result on the DX7 or my stereo.
Create an Audio track to record the edited Midi piece "played" by the DX7
Edit the Audio track (e.g. add delay)
...
Even if it would be better to get an audio interface, I think I can continue working with my adapter for a while ; ) Then let's see!

Bye,
John

Posted by: Levon River Sun 24 Nov 2002, 01:29

Another success story from the MacMusic forums!

Glad you got there, hamard. It's getting there that counts, not the route you take.