Just Gettin' Started, What software is good for starters Options

[monkeyman]

I am interested in creating music and would love to start creating more again. However, I don't have much software. I am mostly interested in electronic music, and don't really see the possibility of the need to use real instruments. Therefore, can anyone recommend a decent starting point. I have heard of a software program called Reason. Would this be seen as the best piece of software for an electronically focused musician ?

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Levon River]

Reason is outstanding. It gives you both: samplers for "all your real-world instrument needs," and soft-synthesizers for that "playin' the air-diode" thang, plus a sequencer of sorts. And its Redrum module can play all the chee-zee 808 and 909 patches you can throw at it, all at the requisite 4-times the speed that any actual human player could approach. It will also provide you with the electronic perfect absence of dynamics required for any electronic drum fill.

Native Instruments also has softsynths with lots of horses under the hood, all of which can be used as VST instruments or standalone. Definitely visit their web site.

[karambos]

monkeyman,

I can't admit to having personally experienced ALL that is out there but I've been producing my own stuff now for about 3 years (purely as a hobby - nothing professional) and I work with guys who do adverts for local German television and radio so I hope this qualifies me somewhat to make some remarks here.

I was utterly clueless at the beginning and asked everyone I knew about what to get. Basically what I learned was: use Logic if you've got a mac and Cubase if you've got a PC but everyone advised me against a PC just because they cause so many problems. I'm so glad I got that advice. I've got Reason and Acid too but I never use them (shelfware) because Logic is so much more flexible. It's also a bugger to learn so don't expect to install Logic and be making music straight away. Give yourself a good, and I mean a good, 6 months.

Having said that, if you just want to make pumping house, with no real instruments (i.e no audio) then all you need is something like Reason or Propellerheads' Rebirth or Fruity Loops. Of these, go for Fruity Loops because it's cheap and once you've bought it you get upgrades free for life.

Just remember: the most important step is deciding what you want to do with your gear. And this includes considering what you'll be doing in 2 years' time. It's like buying a mobile telphone - at first you're like "I only need it to receive calls when I'm out of the house. I'll never use it to make calls myself" and three weeks later it's "Hello? Is that Call-a-pizza? I'd like a ......." You know?

karambos

[monkeyman]

Thanks for the advice from both of you. Much appreciated and very helpful.

Cheers...

[charlieb]

In a similar vein to the leading question in this thread.
What I would like to do is create background music for hypnotic inductions, and other background music to play when people are practicing various exercises. Basically I am looking for an ambient kind of sound, and would not need to much in the way of "real instruments" effects.
I want to create some tracks on my computer using software only if possible and no hardware (again, if possible), and then be able to burn these tracks onto a CD so they can be played on a portable CD player.
Oh, and one thing more <g>
I would also like to add my voice to some of the tracks once the tracks are made.
What would I need in total?
I want to go for a easy to use solution that is flexible, and without too steep a learning curve, like the six months mentioned for Logic.
Currently I am using a Mac Powerbook and system 9.2.2

Thanks in advance for any and all help.
Charlie

[charlieb]

Fruity Loops is only for PC, yes?

[Levon River]

What I would like to do is create background music for hypnotic inductions

You may want to try the APA's forums for tips on how to use music on people.

[Presto]

There are sofware solutions for the sounds which don't need 6 months learning before you get going, but somebody else will have to advise you.

If you want to record voice you'll need some hardware.

Personally, I use protools for audio and I got started immediately. Its not renowned for its midi capabilities but you should be able to do without midi. Protools Free can be downloaded from www.digidesign.com

If you had an analogue/digital converter such as the Griffin Imic (around 60$) you could probably take sounds (mono out) from a friends keyboard.

I do have an Imic usb A/D converter but before trying it with my keyboard, I gave up when the microphone recordings sounded awful. This was probably because I didn't have a pre-amplifier for the mic.

As I need very good quality for mic inputs and didn't want to spend too much money, I got an Mbox from digidesign (around 600$). It provides 48V phantom power for 2 mics, a preamp, and a much better A/D converter. ProTools LE comes with it and it works fine on OS9. Sounds from keyboards, mic recordings - with this you could do it all. If you have a usb plug in your powerbook, and a CD/R drive, this could be a solution.

Also, wonderful things can be done with plugins. These are extra little apps that plug in to your main app. If you don't want to spend alot, don't think of buying any for protools (you get a few bundled with protools le which aren't too bad). Extra ones would be very good, but you need to be rich. There's one I'd have liked but it costs 600$!!

[charlieb]

Thanks Presto!

So, if I was to record my voice onto a MD and then upload to my computer, adding this as a track would sound bad, and or would there not be a way to add a clip from and MD as a track?

Thanks so much for your time,
charlie

[charlieb]

Hi Levon,
What is an APA forum?

Thanks,
charlie

[rickenbacker]

Charlieb: you might like to try Storm 2.0 from Arturia. It's cheap (around £100) but pretty good if you want to create ambient, electronic music quickly. All you'd need is a Midi keyboard with USB connection.

As soon as you bring audio into the equation, well everything gets more complicated!

You'll need an audio interface, but there are a few USB solutions with Midi and audio so really it's down to how much you want to spend.

You can't record audio directly into Storm - you'd need a dedicated sequencer for that. The Logic Big Box might be worth looking at in that case: excellent value, plus excellent Midi and audio tools.

Addendum!
Oops. My mistake. Turns out you CAN record audio directly into Storm 2.0 (as long as you have a USB interface or something else, of course). So Storm 2.0 or Logic Big Box: it's all good. More control in Logic, maybe, plus some really cool extras in the Big Box, although Storm isn't too shabby either.

I wouldn't sweat the "Logic learning curve". It's only as complex as you want to make it. There's a lot of power under the hood, but you can always just get in and drive.

[charlieb]

Wow, this is all so complicated!
I spent a few days looking around, and my head is spinning.
There are sequencers, synths, midi interfaces, VST plug-ins, and a whole lot of other stuff!
I am going to simplify what I asked about last time.
EVENTUALLY I would like to create my own music and then add my voice doing hypnotic relaxation inductions.
But as everyone has told me, adding the audio makes things more complicated.
So, for now, I want a unit that is expandable for the future but for the time being I just want to create some fairly simple ambient type music. Will I wanting a midi interface to accomplish this?
I really am not 100% sure what they do.
Will I want to pieces of soft, one sequencer and one synth, or is a combo package OK?
So a new round of suggestions for software, please. Money is not THE major consideration, but I do not have money to burn either.

Thanks for any and all help.

charlie

[nyc_joe]

Hello and thanx for the advice. I've gleened a lot more just lurking. So, this recommendation of Reason and Live together with the Edirol UA-700 sounds good to me. With this set-up could I record a bass guitar and capture a midi sequence of someone "playing" the Reason drum machine at the sametime? What I mean is could I capture the sequence of triggers for the drum machine not record the audio? And, when I review the bass guitar track the drum machine would playback allowing me to then tweak the drum machine to add fills and such? I could then use the same approach with any other synth in Reason? TIA.

[charlieb]

Charlieb: you might like to try Storm 2.0 from Arturia. It's cheap (around £100) but pretty good if you want to create ambient, electronic music quickly. All you'd need is a Midi keyboard with USB connection.

Hi Rickenbacker,
What is the purpose of the midi keyboard with USB connection?
Sorry if this sounds like a totally dumb question, but I don't understand how this adds to the capability of whatever software package is selected.

Thanks,
cb

[rickenbacker]

Charlieb: with a USB Midi keyboard, you just plug it in to your Mac's USB port and it should be recognised automatically (in OS X, anyway). Then start playing. That's it.

This does away with the need for a Midi interface if all you want to do is have one keyboard controlling something like Reason or Storm. If you want more Midi channels (ie more than 16), you'll need two keyboards etc and thus a Midi interface. Or you could get two USB keyboards and a USB hub, although that might not work so well.

M-Audio's Oxygen 8 is a popular USB keybaord, plus there's a new M-Audio one called Radium and two from Edirol, the PCR-30 and 50, which all have 8 knobs and 8 sliders. These allow you to tweak your virtual studios knobs and faders using your Midi keyboard.

NYC-joe: as far as I can tell, yes. You could record the bass guitar to an audio track and the Reason drums to a Midi track. I've never actually recorded two signals at once this way, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Though I have to say your friend had better be pretty tight with his finger drumming!

[rickenbacker]

Charlieb: with a USB Midi keyboard, you just plug it in to your Mac's USB port and it should be recognised automatically (in OS X, anyway). Then start playing. That's it.

This does away with the need for a Midi interface if all you want to do is have one keyboard controlling something like Reason or Storm. If you want more Midi channels (ie more than 16), you'll need two keyboards etc and thus a Midi interface. Or you could get two USB keyboards and a USB hub, although that might not work so well.

M-Audio's Oxygen 8 is a popular USB keybaord, plus there's a new M-Audio one called Radium and two from Edirol, the PCR-30 and 50, which all have 8 knobs and 8 sliders. These allow you to tweak your virtual studios knobs and faders using your Midi keyboard.

NYC-joe: as far as I can tell, yes. You could record the bass guitar to an audio track and the Reason drums to a Midi track. I've never actually recorded two signals at once this way, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Though I have to say your friend had better be pretty tight with his finger drumming!

[charlieb]

M-Audio's Oxygen 8 is a popular USB keybaord, plus there's a new M-Audio one called Radium and two from Edirol, the PCR-30 and 50, which all have 8 knobs and 8 sliders. These allow you to tweak your virtual studios knobs and faders using your Midi keyboard.

Rickenbacker,
Thanks so much for your very useful reply.
No need to answer if I "got it".
If I understand correctly, the different controls on the MIDI device will correspond to different controls (knobs and sliders) showing up on the software screen, and thus one can be a lot more creative and fluid using a MIDI device, rather than just working with the mouse.
If this is it, great, I got it.
If not, please clarify.

Thanks for the product suggestions as well.

Arigato,
charlie

[rickenbacker]

Charlieb: exactly. That's why these new keyboards are so popular!

But now for some bad news...

Turns out you can't use ReWire in OS X. It's an Apple OS thing, so even though Cubase SX, Reason 2.0, Live 2.0, Storm 2.0 etc are all "ReWire 2.0 ready", they can't be connected yet because of an OS X issue that I understand (from talking to a Steinberg rep yesterday) only Apple can really deal with.

Whether that's the case or not, it means ReWire does not work in OS X, even though the software sepcifically written for it is ready. If you see what I mean.

Everything is fine in OS 9, so if you really want to use two programs simultaneously (ie Reason and Live), you'll have to ReWire 'em there. I use everything in OS X and I've been using them separately for the past few months, getting different sections ready in different applications - I just assumed ReWire would work when I came to need it. Found out yesterday that ain't the case!

So OS X STILL isn't fully music ready, even after 10.2. Aargh!

[charlieb]

But now for some bad news...

Turns out you can't use ReWire in OS X.

Rickenbacker,
Your statement about ReWire as quoted here, leads me to understand more about what I don't know!

When I looked up ReWire it said:
A typical application supplying audio via ReWire would be a software synthesizer or a multimedia authoring application with audio output. Examples of an application receiving audio would be a software audio mixer, processor or recorder.

SOOOOOO
1. I am a bit confused as to how and why I would need ReWire.
If I get a synth and a sequencer program is ReWire meant to enable these two different programs working successfully together?
2. Am I understanding the following properly yet primatively?–
Synth soft is used to generate different kinds of sounds and different patterns of sounds interacting.
While
Sequencing software is used to cut, paste, shake, bake, shape and craft an actual piece of music, but is not meant to be the software that generates a full range of possible "sounds".
It seems to me that a number of products claim to do both. Is this so?
For instance, I am guessing that this is what the Logic Big Box bundle is meant to do.

Thanks for your support and patience.

Regards,
charlie

[ryosode]

Turns out you can't use ReWire in OS X.

Hm... I don't claim to be an expert here, but this Steinberg rep must be lying to you, cuz I can have my Live and Reason (both OS X version) talk to each other via ReWire. I could record my Reason sequence to Live flawlessly via ReWire, without going through lame export and import. Do you know if that rep happened to be a marketing guy or a customer support? I never trust either of them...

On the contrary, it is true that Logic and Cubase are not yet ReWire compatible. I imagine it takes a long time for the code to be re-written in order for ReWire to work under OS X. But I think emagic people are working on it. As for Steinberg, I don't believe what they say anymore after realizing that they are still pushing for ASIO and VST even though Apple, as a way of showing their dedication to the music industry, has given us wonderful CoreAudio and Audio Units.

Sorry, I guess this was off topic, but couldn't help.

[ryosode]

BTW, in case someone's interested, this month's MacWorld magazine (Jan 2003) includes a quick break down of OS X Audio technology in a user friendly language. If you are new to this stuff and interested in understanding some of the under the hood stuff, check it out.

[rickenbacker]

OK, Rysode first!

You say you can get Live and Reason talking together in OS X? How'd you do that, then? My option is greyed out. If you can give us a quick run through, that would be a big help. As I say, I only tried it for the first time the other day after my conversation with the Steinberg guy (marketing or customer support? They're almost one and the same these days), so if it can be done that would be a revelation.

Cubase SX is definitely ReWire 2 ready - at least, that's what it says on the box. I may be getting a copy soon, so I can check it for real then. Logic's ReWire implementation, meanwhile, seems to have petered out somewhat with version 5.

I agree about Steinberg and VST - it's a shame all the music companies couldn't agree to seize the opportunity to rally around the newer and better Audio Units format with the move to OS X.

Now Charlieb: no problemo with the support or patience!

ReWire, as you may have guessed, allows you to hook two or more compatible programs together. The idea is so you can enjoy the major strengths of both in one working environment. Say with Live and Reason: hooked together via ReWire, you can use the rhythms and synths of Reason, then add live audio recorded in Live. Or Reason and Cubase SX: output the synths etc from Reason and use the better sequencer, FX, live audio recording features etc in Cubase to finish your track.

As for your point 2, you seem to have a good handle on it. Most sequencers these days also bundle some sort of soft synth to actually play your tune on as well as the building blocks for constructing the song. So the Logic Big Box has an electric piano, a decent synth and a sample player (note: playback only). Plus you can record your live audio into the sequencer as well. No drum machine, though, so you'd need to use the EXSP for loops. Almost an all-in-one total solution.

Cubase has a drum machine included (pretty basic, but better than a metronome as you build your song up) plus another bass synth and some decent FX. It's almost impossible to decide definitively which sequencer is best - they've all got something special to offer. Personally, I like the fact that Cubase comes with a Vocoder and some other nice FX touches, but I also like Logic's 3 internal synths (they come with Platinum, not sure about Silver - check that out).

So to come full circle, ReWire is just a protocol (designed by Propellerhead Software, who make Reason) to allow two music programs to talk to each other. Basically, every computer musician has their preferred sequencer and then usually an additional collection of software synths and drum machines that "plug-in" (using one method or another - VST, Audio Units, ReWire etc) to the main sequencer, which is where the song is built up from the constituent parts and completed.

Wow, hope that all makes sense.

Maybe buy that magazine Rysode mentioned?

[charlieb]

RICKENBACKER,
Thanks so much. You have helped me a great deal.

I will try January MacWorld as well.

Regards,
charlie

[ryosode]

Let's see what's going on. Here's my setting.

OS X 10.2.2
Live 1.5
Reason 2.0

If I remember correctly (and sorry my memory is very vague here) if you are using earlier version of Live, you may not have the ReWire host option. Since Reason 2.0 is a ReWire client software, you can only run it as a slave to Live. All I have to do is to launch Live, then launch Reason.

Let me know if you need further information.

[charlieb]

Rysode, Rickenbacker, and others,
For someone like me, who is not looking to become a professional in the digital music field, do you think that the combination of Live, Reason, and Rewire, with an Oxygen 8 MIDI control would serve me well?
I have played with the Live demo and it looks pretty easy.
Someone told me that Live was too limited compared to Cubase, and that I would wind up disappointed. Somehow I am not drawn to Cubase, and of course the price is a good deal more.

Thanks for any and all input.

cb

[charlieb]

ANNDDD
In regard to ReWire I am confused now, because I do not see where/how it is sold.
Is it simply an added advantage with PropellerHead products and it is not a separate software package that needs to be bought?

Thanks,
charlie

[ryosode]

let's see. I am planning on buying a Logic platinum soon, but my current setup is exactly Live and Reason. I use Live with Oxygen8 and Reason with a full-length keyboard as well as Tascam US-428. I love this setting. Those softwares make music making such a painless process.

As for ReWire, no you don't need a separate application. It introduces a system level API for audio softwares to talk to each other. Live is a ReWire host/client application, meaning it can act as a host application to accept ReWire clients (in OS X's case, Reason seems to be the only real Application that can connect to Live) or it can connect to a ReWire host. Anyway, once ReWire host and client are connected (OS level registry of some sort is apparently responsible for the transaction) these applications share not only the audio, but also the transport controls as well (meaning you pressing "Play" button in either appliication causes both applications to play). I don't know the technical details but I've seen some amazing magic happening on my desktop...

[rickenbacker]

Rysode: thanks for the tip. I'll check that out.

Charlieb: What Rysode says is spot on. If an application (ie Reason) says it's ReWire compatible, it's ready straight out of the box - it's part of the program, so you don't need to buy it.

The Oxygen 8 is a decent keyboard - I've got one myself. I've also got a full-length Midi k/b, as well, but if you don't need that much, the Oxygen 8 is fine. I'd recommend taking a look at the new k/bs from M-Audio (the Radium), or Edirol's new PCR-30 and PCR-50. They're all similar to the Oxygen 8, but one step beyond in terms of added functionality (knobs! sliders! etc!)

Live and Reason are both great programs. For someone starting out, they're ideal and could be all you'd ever need. Live 2.0 (due any day now, apparently) is set to make it more like a regular sequencer, with a multitrack recording section just like Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools, Digital Performer etc. The beauty of Live (for me, anyway) is that it's unlike previous sequencers - it seems more "musical". Less fiddling, more grooving. Some people love it, others hate it.

I've also got Logic Platinum, which is very powerful - there's nothing you can't do. Cubase SX I may be getting in a few weeks, which is also pretty comprehensive in terms of music production. But they're both around £500.

Judging by your posts so far, I'd say either Live 2.0 + Reason 2.0 (or maybe the Logic Big Box or Cubase SL, the entry-level versions of the Big 2) + a Midi k/b with programmable knobs will set you off down a good path.

Enjoy!

[charlieb]

Thanks so much guys!
I live in Japan, and now I need to find a place that sells the English version of MacWorld.

And one strange thing today-
I downloaded both Live and Reason. Both programs think that I have Virtual Memory on when I don't.
So I went and turned VM on and then restarted, and then I turned VM off and restarted but no joy, both programs still think I have VM on, and thus Reason won't even open.

Any ideas?

cb

[ryosode]

Chalie,

Yes as Rickenbacker mentioned Edirol (Roland in Japan) PCR-30 and PCR-50 are very very cool keyboards. If they had these out before Oxygen 8, I probably bought one. They sell as PCR-30 and PCR-50 in Japan as well. http://www.roland.co.jp/products/dtm/PCR-50.html

Actually, both Live and Reason are purchasable as download, so if you have a broadband access, that's the way to go. (It's cheaper too!) Oh and don't forget if you buy Live 1.5 now, you will get a free upgrade to 2.0 when it comes out. (supposed to be anytime now)

If you do need a place where you can buy English language products, let me know and I'll see if my friends can help you find a store.

[charlieb]

Yes as Rickenbacker mentioned Edirol (Roland in Japan) PCR-30 and PCR-50 are very very cool keyboards. If they had these out before Oxygen 8, I probably bought one. They sell as PCR-30 and PCR-50 in Japan as well. http://www.roland.co.jp/products/dtm/PCR-50.html

Soo, between the two Edirol models and Radium, which would you get?

Also, Ryosode, is hardware like the above cheaper in Japan or the US?
What is the best place to buy in Tokyo?


Arigato,
charlie

[rickenbacker]

Charlieb: I'd have thought the Edirol/Roland keyboards would be as cheap in Japan as they are in the US or the UK. Check out a few US online music stores (like musiciansfriend.com or sweetwater.com, I think they're pretty big) and check their prices. In the UK, the full RRP of the PCR-50, which is the biggest of the two Edirol's, is £199. Probably a bit cheaper instore.

Between the Radium and the Edirols? Can't say. I don't know how big the Radium is (ie, its keyboard span), plus I've not seen one in real life, only on the web. In terms of functions, they all have 8 knobs and 8 sliders as far as I know, so pretty similar in that respect. So that's 8 sliders more than the Oxygen 8 straight away.

I have seen the PCR-50 for real, though, at MacExpo London. It's a really nice keyboard and is automatically recognised in OS 10.2. It also comes with preset knob assignment templates for Logic, Cubase, Reason etc, so the most common uses are already onboard. Don't know if the Radium does that, too - it might well do.

But I like Edirol stuff. My Oxygen 8 has been fine (and still is) but as Rysode says, if the PCR-50 had been available six months ago, well...

About the Virtual Memory - are you trying the demos in OS 9? If so, I can't help you. I'd have suggested the same thing as you've already tried. Post a message in the OS 9 forum pages here and someone will help you out. Maybe it's just a demo bug, but ask around and someone will help.

[ryosode]

Soo, between the two Edirol models and Radium, which would you get?

Also, Ryosode, is hardware like the above cheaper in Japan or the US?
What is the best place to buy in Tokyo?


Arigato,
charlie

I'd get Edirol (or Roland for you), but quite frankly, I don't think there's much difference. I choose Roland for their reputation.

The price of domestic pro audio equipments (Yamaha, Roland, etc) tend to go down quickly in Japan. If you can read Japanese, I recommend buyin one of these Keyboard magazines or a magazine called "Sound and Recording". They are good resource for you. If you can, go to Akihabara or Shinjuku's electronics area. There are dvisions of LAOX and Big Camera that are dedicated to selling latest audio stuff. These tend to be cheaper places to buy your equipments than going to a local instruments store.

[ryosode]

Oops, I mean "If you can , go to Akihabara or Shinjuku's electronics area, go there and check them out. If you can speak Japanese, do ask questions. These guys in Shinjuku or Akiharabara selling pro audio are well informed people."

[charlieb]

The price of domestic pro audio equipments (Yamaha, Roland, etc) tend to go down quickly in Japan. If you can read Japanese, I recommend buyin one of these Keyboard magazines or a magazine called "Sound and Recording". They are good resource for you. If you can, go to Akihabara or Shinjuku's electronics area. There are dvisions of LAOX and Big Camera that are dedicated to selling latest audio stuff. These tend to be cheaper places to buy your equipments than going to a local instruments store.

Ryosode,
Thanks. Speaking Japanese in most instances is no problem for me.
Reading I am terrible at. But if I go to BIC P Kan store then I can talk to the salespeople. I still might buy through a website in the US, but it will be fun to see stuff sitting in front of me.
Thanks for all your help.

Charlie

[charlieb]

In regard to my Virtual Memory problem...
Duhhh,
I have Ram Doubler installed, and this was the problem.

cb

I am mostly interested in electronic music, and don't really see the possibility of the need to use real instruments. Therefore, can anyone recommend a decent starting point. I have heard of a software program called Reason. Would this be seen as the best piece of software for an electronically focused musician ?

Reason is the way to go if you don't want to invest in real instruments. At least if you are using a newer Mac.. You didn't mention what system you're feeding.. and that makes all the difference in the world. The more VSTi instruments required, the more horsepower your system needs to keep up.

Check out sweetwater.com for more information than you'll be able to deal with in one sitting.. And, NO.. I don't work for them.. but as far as I'm concerned, they are a God Send.

Best of luck ! .............. Tom