Newbie Needs Advice!, software/hardware setup can't decide Options

[mook noodler]

First of all, Hello! I've been looking around in here for about 3 hours now and I'm really impressed. This is one of the best forums I've been to and seems to be the most helpful. Now that my nose is well browned...

here's my situation: (and I don't mean to repeat other topics but there's so many that I'm overwhelmed!!!) I've been recording music for the past 3 years or so on a PC with Cakewalk and Cakewalk Sonar. I like Sonar, but I got so sick of PCs that I went and got myself a PowerMac dual1.25 G4 with OSX. Now I needs a new setup. I record guitar, bass, vocals, and keyboard and drum machine. I have a Midisport 4x4 for midi, but I'm definitely not a midi whiz. I also have several outboard effects (delay, compression, etc) that I like to use.

At first I leaned toward the Digi 001 cuz of all the I/O's, but this forum has me thinking Logic or Cubase, which leaves me pretty confused about a hardware interface. I don't think I need a mixer type thing (already have a mixer), but I'd like something with several I/O's for sending tracks to outboard effects, and I'd really like a breakout box. I just need basic plug-ins but would like to be able to add more later. Softsynths would be cool too.

Hope I didn't go over the top w/ details. Any advice/input would be greatly appreciated, and I thank you all in advance! PS: my price range is about $1200.

[mook noodler]

By the way, not sure of proper etiquite; there's another topic that's really similar to mine, but it didn't entirely solve my dilemna. Should I have posed my question in that thread, or was it okay to make a new one? I'm a newbie to forums in general.

[lepetitmartien]

You're welcome!
Browse all you want

Now can you get more precise on your question, as I find difficult to understand it (it may be the language barrier…)

Mainly how many I/O you need and of what type? analogue? balanced or not? Spdif?

[mook noodler]

Let's see; as far as I/O's go, I mostly need unbalanced, but a couple xlr mic inputs too. I have a mic pre amp, so that's not a necessity. I'd like (ideally) to have enough inputs to have all or most of my gear plugged in at once (2 for synth, 2 for guit, 1 for bass, 1 for mic), and then still have 2 inputs left for outboard effects returns. For outputs, I need a pair for my monitors and at least two more for effects sends. As for S/PDIF, I don't even know what that is yet, other than some sort of digital I/O.

The way I was doing things on my PC was this: I ran everything into my mixer and my mixer into a crappy Creative Labs sound card. But what I want now is to be able to simultaneously record separate instruments to separate tracks.

Hope this clarifies more! Thanks!

[PlasTree]

I own a MOTU 828 and have been very pleased with it's quality and reliability. Plus it's semi-portable, which can come in handy. It will work with just about any DAW program, except for Protools, of course. It has 8 analog ins and outs (2 xlr, 6 unbalanced phono), plus 8 channels in/out of ADAT and 2 of SPDIF. It's 24/48k, so if you want to record up to 96k, you could get the MOTU 896, which is a bit more expensive. The 828 can be had for $700 nowadays.

I wouldn't recommend the Digi 001, unless you want to use Protools (not a bad move at all). The 001 has inferior dynamic range compared to other products in its price range. It does, however, come with the daw software. I know you can use Digital Performer and Logic with the 001, but there's little point in getting the 001 just for the hardware. Technical stuff aside though, my studio collaborator owns a 001- we've never had any problems with it, and the sound quality is just fine.

Aside from those offerings, Presonus just came out with the Firestation, which has very similar specs to the 828. I have a friend with a Presonus Digimax preamp, and it's really good for the money. I don't have any experience with the Firestation, however.

Those are the products that I know of off the top of my head, although I'm sure there are others in that price range. Do a LOT of research before you buy! It's always worth it.

[PlasTree]

Important note: Neither the Digi 001 nor the Firestation have osX drivers yet.

[mook noodler]

Thanks PlasTree! I've been looking into your suggestions and they both look really good (except like you said, Firestation won't work with OSX yet and they make no indication of when it will).

Any recommendations for software? Logic or Cubase?

Thanks again!

[PlasTree]

Hehe. I'm probably going against the grain here. Seems a majority of users on this forum are Logicheads. I don't use Logic or Cubase. I wouldn't recommend Cubase because it is buggy and amateurish. Logic has the goods, but I don't care for it's interface. It's very non-standard and hard on my eyes. But that's subjective, I guess.

I use Protools and Digital Performer. I actually use DP more often because it's more flexible in terms of hardware support and I like it's interface a little better. But honestly, DP is mostly a copy of Protools with just a few major differences. That's by no means a bad thing, as Protools is the standard, and a good one at that.

I strongly encourage you to give Digital Performer a review along with the other DAW's. An osX version is not out just yet, but is slated for a March release (although I'm not holding my breath). If you must use Logic, I guess you're in good hands, as most of the posters here seem pleased with their software. I personally will never be caught dead using it unless it receives a major interface overhaul.

Good luck in your future making music on a Mac! You got the most important part right, anyway!

[mook noodler]

Thanks again PlasTree. I wonder if you (or anyone else) could tell me about the differences between Logic and ProTools or DP? I've downloaded a trial version of Cubase, but can't find one for Logic, and ProTools FREE doesn't work in OSX. What don't you like about the Logic interface?

I was using Cakewalk Sonar and liked the setup (probably because it's all I knew). Is Logic or PT or DP similar?

[manexmachina]

If you're interested mostly in audio editing the stuff you've recorded, consider protools very seriously.

As far as Logic or Cubase or DP. This is what I've found for myself and what I've found from research with other people who know the apps much better than I.

Logic - Logic is the end all tool - but I find that the peple who like it often are people who are nuts about the details and like or must work with the nitty gritty to customize something for their own studio or someone elses. It is more limitless, but with that comes a much reduced ease of use. It tends to be a tool for the people who really like tools. If I were a studio midi-tech, I'd be a logic fanatic.

Cubase - With the SX version, the interface no longer bothers me and I think the making of music in it to be much more simple compared to logic. I think they rush out the product at the expense of the details sometimes and being rough on the edges - but it's not the tool for the midi-tech God... The personality of the people who use it tend to be the garage musician - but the people who get a lot done too. Now, I was a ProTools user early on (version 1) and the attitude back then ("Screw all the big expensive equipment, we'll do it cheap!") is now the attitude of the cubase/nuendo users and no longer that of protools which has become the establishment, not the rebels.

DP - Very Mac. The interface is beautiful, but despite having a reputation for being protools like, I find cubase a lot more protools like mostly because DP has so many multiple windows. Now, the users of DP tend to be true musicians (not djs or midi techs) - Ironically, it has the least implemented score features. I'm not sure if the musicians like the pretty interface or the midi tools or the ease of use. I'm not sure I'd gamble on DP as being the most likely to be a surviving program in 5 years either. (Though you could argue that about any of these programs.) You rarely hear about people hating DP or frustrated with it - unless you're talkinga bout their slow upgrade process and taking a few versions to get it right. They have the new Mach5 which is very exciting - but that will work with any sequencer. They are rumored to have the best built in effects. But they're also rumored to have the most latency issues.

So, that's my collective impression of the different applications. I'd love to hear any further opinions. (No need to flame, just state your case - this is all in the name of research.)

For me? If I were choosing one platform? I think I'd probably go Cubase/Nuendo... but I still might change my mind and go DP... Logic I tried to warm up to, because I know it is probably the best program on many levels... but it just takes too much time to make things happen. Apple may change this and I may switch then... but for now, I want to make some music happen, not some programming. why not protools eventhough I'm an expert in that already? I'm too tired of upgrading every 2 years... nubus system 1 to nubus system 2 to pci 1 to pci version 2 etc... and it's always so expensive, I think Steinberg is doing what digidesign was doing in the early 90s. (BTW, digidesign was really unstable back then compared to now... the nature of a cheaper system.)

hope this helps.

[mook noodler]

Thanks manexmachina! I appreciate all the help I can get. Except it almost seems like the more info I get the more confused I am! Sure wish Logic had a demo, and PT had one I could use. The Cubase demo is pretty cool, but Sonar for PC is all I have to compare it to.

Sure would like to hear from a Logic fan!

[PlasTree]

To be quite honest, I chose DP because it was simply the most charming out of the bunch. I found it to be uniquely inviting to work with (I never once referred to the manual when learning it), and it just seemed to fit my sensibilities well. One of the most helpful features it has are context-sensitive balloon help dialogs, which describe almost every function on screen as you roll over them. I found Logic to be immediately offensive to my tastes, with the dark, PC-like graphics and obscure naming scheme (Hyperedit Mode, Environment, etc.). I tried it out for a day, got mostly nowhere, and never touched it again. Protools came across as solid, but a bit out-dated and lacking a few of the efficiencies that I've come to love about DP3, not to mention a lesser ease of use (for newcomers, anyway).

The point is, I can't possibly speak for everyone, because we all appreciate different qualities. You really should find a way to try out each of the programs that you're interested in before you buy, or when you buy, make sure there's a return policy.
I'm sure you could be equally capable with all three of the aforementioned programs, so it's just a matter of taste, really.

I, for one, refuse to work with a program that I find disagreeable, no matter how technically capable it is. Perhaps I'm more picky about interfaces than most, but I can't get over seemingly meaningless decision-making on the developer's part when it comes to such things. These are all subjective statements of course, and you Logic users out there need not take my comments personally. Whatever floats your boat...

[mook noodler]

PlasTree, thanks again. When you said you didn't even have to get out the manual to learn DP, that REALLY makes me want to check it out. I like the MOTU 828 too. So I've got one more question for you: I noticed that the 828 lacks a word clock, which comparable interfaces seem to have. Now, I don't wanna sound like a moron, but what is a word clock and will I ever need it? From what I gather it's for syncing multiple midi devices? I've been recording midi for a couple years and have never used a word clock (at least not that I know of), but I've never used more than one midi device at a time.

Thanks again to you and everyone else. I feel like I'm inching closer to a decision now. Just gotta find a way to test drive everything!

[manexmachina]

General note - i totally agree that DP wins the beautiful interface caegory - and seeming simpleness. I will add, however, that Cubase also is an app which needs little manual reading to comprehend. The DP usage of balloons is notably impressive however, and I'm wondering what they are doing in DP X since there are no help balloons anymore.

PlasTree - question for you would be - do YOU ever experience latency on your playing - are you using virtual instruments? MAS? A VST Wrapper?

[PlasTree]

mook noodler-
Word clock is a sort of "metronome" that governs the sample timing of interconnected digital audio gear. It is mainly used in larger studios that have lots of different digital devices that need to communicate with each other. Interfaces such as those included on the 828 (ADAT and S/PDIF) include their own clock signals in their data streams, but sometimes it is necessary to sync all devices via word clock to prevent audio "jitter", or clicks and pops that can ruin a recording. Word clock is not used for midi timing.

That said, you probably have little use for word clock. I doubt that you'd ever run into sync problems at your scale, assuming that you even own any equipment with digital output/inputs. This is why MOTU decided not to include the feature in the 828.

manexmachina-
I use a 600mhz iBook and a 867 Quicksilver with DP. My experiences with latency are pretty much the same with either machine. When monitoring through the virtual mixer with abundant plugins and bussing, the latency of incoming audio is very hard to notice. I don't know the exact milliseconds. It seems as good as the latency in Protool's "Low Latency Mode". I use MAS and VST plugs through the VST Wrapper, and haven't noticed a difference in latency between the two formats. I don't use virtual instruments, so I can't comment on their performance, unfortunately.

When I use midi to control my synths, however, the latency starts to get noticeable. It's not an issue when recording or editing midi notes, but when I record the audio of my synths that are being controlled by midi tracks in DP, I always end up having to back the audio tracks up by, I'd guess, 15-20 milliseconds. This, in my experience, is far from unique to DP. I've always had to compensate for latency when recording audio from midi-controlled synths. Supposedly CoreMidi reduces this issue considerably, so I can't wait untill DP4 comes out.

The DP usage of balloons is notably impressive however, and I'm wondering what they are doing in DP X since there are no help balloons anymore.

I wonder if this is what's taking them so long! haha

[lepetitmartien]

I wonder if this is what's taking them so long! haha

Mhmm… could be… ©Tex Avery

[mook noodler]

Thanks to everyone for all the great advice! I still haven't made a decision but now I know what each program is about. Might end up going with DP when it finally comes out for OSX, which MOTU tells me could be "as early as 4 to 6 weeks". I'm assuming that means longer...

Thanks again!

[lepetitmartien]

From Yukulele on the FR forum part an hint from a MOTU reseller is a release of both DP X and MachFive at the same time mid April.

hope hope

[manexmachina]

I wonder if this is what's taking them so long! haha

I'm pretty sure what is taking DP so long is this:

1. they're rewriting from scratch. It's just a hunch and I'd love to know the truth - but for such an incredibly mac-centric application (one that actually USED the balloon features), I would imagine these programmers would want to write their code at the core level. I spoke to the author of another program who upgraded to OSX and he commented that he took the short cut (writing at a higher level), but thought perhaps other programmers would want to rewrite from scratch.

2. if this is not the case, I'd say that they are mostly likely using all their resources focused on the MACH5 because they know that this will be a cross-platform money maker - so from an economic point of view, they'll want to keep it their number one priority.

[PlasTree]

I should certainly hope that dp4 is a complete rewrite. I wouldn't want anything less, and I'm willing to wait for it to be done right. It sure would be great and (mostly unprecedented) to have a fully functioning, bug-free version x.0 major audio app at my disposal. That's wishful thinking, though.