Total Beginner Needs Guiding Hand, Help for beginner Options

[russellthemessia...]

Hello all.

I am new both to Mac Music and making music on a Mac (or any other PC). I have absolutely no idea as to how audio setups work, MIDI interfaces, preamps etc. I once naively believed I could just plug my guitar into my computer; that gives you an idea of the level of ineptitude I display. BUT, I am willing to learn so, any plain English explanations of how best to go about recording my voice, my guitar and keyboards (yet to be bought but willing to spend some cash) would be much appreciated. I must make it clear that I fully intend to buy Logic Express 6... other than that, I am a little lost. I do not intend to spend more than £350 after having bought Logic... Many thanks in advance for your time.

[xingu]

Let's get some things straight first.
What gear do you already have? From your post I gather your guitar and your voice . Do you have a mic? You'll obviously need one of those to get the voice into Logic.
What kind of keyboards/synths are you talking? Once you get Logic Express, you'll actually have two virtual synths - the ES-1 (built into Logic) as well as the EVP73 (Rhodes) plug-in for starters. Then you'll just need a MIDI controller to "play" them. What kind of music do you plan on recording?
Sounds like the first thing you should look into purchasing is an audio interface, which will get the voice and guitar into your Mac. By the way, what Mac? What operating system?
For audio interfaces, you'll want to determine how many inputs you need - if you will only be recording one or two tracks at a time, look into the gear offered by Edirol, M-Audio and Tascam, which should meet your budget. Don't worry about a preamp yet - most interfaces have their own. Some might debate their quality, but whatever you get should certainly be adequate for starting out - besides, you probably won't be able to fit one into your current budget. Browse through these forums to see various reviews, opinions, rants, etc. to help narrow down your decision as to which interface is best for you. Any more specific questions, just ask.

[russellthemessia...]

Ok. Things are starting to make a little more sense. I have a Powerbook G4 (1.25 gb and pretty damn quick) running OSX 10.35 with 512 mb SDRAM which I am hoping will be more than adequate just for starting out. Other than that, I have nothing but my guitar and voice! In terms of microphones, is it worth getting two for stereo sound or is that comlicating the issue? With regards to the keyboards etc, I had envsaged getting keyboards capable of simulating other instruments as well like organs and more modern dance sounds. The music itself will be fairly straightforward (voice, guitar, drum loops (are they built in to Logic) bass and keyboard details) but I do want the ability to make more 'intelligent' detailed music with a more modern feel as I progress... Can I ask what you imply by a MIDI 'controller'? Is that not a keyboard? And is an audio interface the same as an external soundcard?

This post has been edited by russellthemessiah: Wed 15 Sep 2004, 08:08

[john63]

Hi, I am wondering if I might ride along on this one too, without detracting from Russell's requests.

I too am a beginner. In fact I am not even a musician. I have, however, been using Macs for years. I recently bought an iBook G4 with 640 MB ram and started playing with Garage Band. I really enjoy it and want to take it further. I guess my next steps are to consider the best ways for me to record voice (I am/was a professional storyteller.) and to add a keyboard input. I also need to learn to use the keyboard.

I have been looking online at what is available in microphones. Actually I have recorded with the inbuilt mic but it seems to capture the whirring fan too. Someone recommended an iMic. But then I also have to buy a mic to go with that. How good does it need to be? And how about MicFlex. Why not plug such a USB mic straight in?

The keyboards that have been recommended are keystation 49e, GarageKey (maybe not released yet) and Novations controller. The last one looks just too complicated for me. Can anyone recommend either of the others? Any others?

To complicate all of this, I am in Thailand. I have not really looked at what is available here. Will take a trip to Bangkok in a few weeks to have a look. Also I am on a very limited budget.

[kaboombahchuck]

OK, if I was just starting out, and new what I know... Here is what I'd do.

Russ,,
Get yourself a decent midi controller keyboard that uses USB for a connection to the Mac.... yes it is a keybord, that can be either volosity sincitive, or a weighted feel. With the instruments that should come with Logic, and what there is out on the web (sound fonts) there is no limit to what you will be able to do. I could go on about all that you will be able to do, but it would take forever.
As far as audio goes.. depends on it your laptop as an audio in port (1/8" stereo) or not..
If it does have an adio in port, get yourself a decent mixer (Alesis, or Behringer). Generally if you go this way you will not need any pre amps, and alot of the small mixer come with built in effects. They come with 48 volt "fantom power" so you will be able to go with either a cartoid mic or a condincer mic, no problem. Plug the guitar into the mixer, and what ever else you want. The problem with going this way is you can only record 2 tracs symiltainiously.

If not you will need to get an external audio infterface. Fire wire interfaces (like the MOTU 828) are your best bet, but at almost a grand for one of those you might want to check out the USB interfaces. Some of the interfaces some with fantom power for the mics. They are also usually portable. The draw backs are.. the prices for a desent interface is still a bit pricey, the mixer control is done using sliders and nobs on the computer screen (I prefer real slider and nobs, switches, lights... the more the better).

If your laptop maxes out a 512, then that's the best your gonna get, if not then max the ram.

John,
Same for you..
I have not heard much good about the iMic's..
Another midi controller you might want to check would be Oxygen 8 (M-Audio... I think),

[russellthemessia...]

Thanks for the reply dude.

I'm just wondering, if I need to get an external audio interface (which I think I do because the only port I can't identify is marked with two blacked out triangles facing each other with a circle in the middle and I don't think that is an audio in port) do i also need to get a mixer? An what is 'Fantom Power'? I really appreciate the advice. Many thanks.

[xingu]

Russell,

You know what? You'll probably be better off starting out with Garageband considering your budget. That will give you synths, drums and everything else you need to begin making complete songs. There are no drum loops including with Logic Express, and the included synth options are limited. Plus, you'll free up a decent amount of extra cash to put into your gear.

A mixer should be unnecessary if you're getting an interface. Fantom/phantom power is used to supply power to condensor mics, which require it before they produce a signal. On your limited budget, you'd be best served by buying something like a Shure SM-57 - a good all-around dynamic mic suitable for vocals or instruments.

An SM-57 ($99) plus an interface like the Tascam US-122 (about $200) will come close to eating up your current budget - then one of the cheaper MIDI controllers like the Ozone is another $140 or so. Also think about how many USB ports your Mac has. Maybe something like M-Audio's Ozone (about $250), which combines a MIDI keyboard with a USB audio interface, plus the SM-57 would be a good option as well.

[russellthemessia...]

Once again, thanks for the help. i am now considering all these options before going out and blowing my hard earned ding. I am veering towards an M-Audio Firwire Audiophile Soundcard, a small Behringer Mixer (it's only £60) and then I'm still a bit dodgy on the choice of midi controller... I have been recommended an M-Audio Radium 49 with a £430 Roland Sound module. But, as this works out quite pricey, I have been looking for a more workable option: a) I just stick with the inbuilt sound module in Logic for the moment until I get the hang of things and need more versatility or b) something like a Korg Microkorg Synth... although I'm not sure this does the same job. Either way, things are becoming clearer and thank you for you replies and advice. I'm just looking forward to making music now.

[landlox]

Hi _ I'm new to this web site. Just a hobbyist - know a few chords on both keyboard & piano. Would like to try basic arrangements of homebrew pop/rock so-called songs.

Hope you don't mind my piggy-backing my questions here (I just posted a question on Cubase SE vs Logic Espress under another thread. But this thread seems very relevent)

I have a B&W Powermac with a G4/500 upgrade chip - 512 ram.
This mac has a mike/line input (i've used for transferring LP's to CD - yeah, I'm THAT old).... I have a consumer Casio MIDI (WK-1300. Key sensitive, standard 128 sounds or is it 256?)

The talk about 'mixers' and sound interfaces confuses me. Don't programs like Cubase & Logic ACT as 'mixers' where you can change volume, 'pan' (which 'speaker' in stereo), etc???

I'm assuming I'd record one audio track (guitar and voice layers) at a time and only need one mike - even if its the cheapo one that came with the Mac - at least for now.

Not to be redundant but maybe the people on this thread can answer this - in the 'requirements' for the 2 programs, they said something (1 in each) i didn't understand. I think the original posting person here could benefit from the answer so i'll ask here..

cubase se sys requirements say:
Sound Card: CoreAudio compatible audio hardware

logic express requirements say:
Low latency audio hardware recommended

What do these things mean? Can I get by with my basic equipment.

Thanks VERY much
Landlox

[xingu]

Landlox,

Yes, DAWs like Cubase and Logic do act as virtual mixers with faders, pa knobs, etc. kaboombahchuck had suggested using a hardware mixer as a means to get various audio sources into the computer using the single line in as an alternative to an audio interface, which usually has multiple inputs (so you don't need a hardware mixer).

CoreAudio is the sound architecture for OSX. If you have an older Mac and are still running OS9, you can't use Cubase SE.

The low latency audio hardware is referring to an audio interface - most interfaces now feature some kind of direct monitoring to get around latency issues (when the sound you play is heard after a delay due to the time it takes for the signal to process through the computer). This can throw your timing off when listening to yourself through the computer while recording, which you'd need to do if, for example, you're putting guitar down over an existing drum track. Direct monitoring essentially lets you hear the signal at the input source before it's processed, so there's no delay (latency). You'll probably have latency issues using your Mac's input, so you might want to think about purchasing an audio interface.

[kaboombahchuck]

OK, here is the deal

If you don't have (or want to spend alot) of money, going the mixer way is the most cost effecient. Some folks say that the sound quality is not as good as it would be with an external audio interface, personally, I think the sound quality is plenty good for the cost. Also having a mixer around is never a bad idea. I like using an external mixer to get the desired sound quality before it goes into the computer. I only use the software mixer to do the final mix. Latency has not been an issue, as I monitor from the mixer. The only time there is latency is when monitoring a live recording played through the head phone jack with headphones, and that's just a bit of not setting the mixer up.

If you have money aplenty, then an external audio interface is the way to go. I do not recomend the USB interfaces, because latency is an issue, as is the number of tracks it can handle. Fire wire or better is the only way to go. Also setting some of these interfaces can be a bit taxing on a persons patiance!

Bottom line, if you recorded LPs into the audio port of the mac, and the sound quality suited you, then you will be happy with a mixer. Also if you are a hobbiest, you need to decide just how interested you are in persuing it. You can always upgrade.

Personally if money was an issue, I'd go totally internal with my midi controlled sounds. There are plenty of great free sound fonts out there, and plenty of cheep vertual samplers to play the soundfonts on. Also there are some pretty good softsynth modules out there for free. Get a midi controller you like, and use it to trigger a virtually limitless amount of different sounds, and samples. Also some of the recording programs out there will render the midi tracks to audio internally, no fuss, no mess! You can always buy external modules as money (or the desire) presents itself.

You folks should look around the Softwares sectoin of this site. It's a great place to find progams that will wow you.

[prrcomm]

I agree with everything that's been said here with one caveat: don't buy ANYTHING from Behringer. Their stuff is all crap.

[landlox]

Thanks much for your answers. As a long time computer programmer I KNOW how a certain specialty has its own jargon and how people in their fields sometimes don't even realize they are using terms outsiders don't really 'get'... I've tried to always be patient and re-explain things to people....

I guess I'm begging for mercy ---
I'm still a little confused about some terms or usages.

Midi controller - I assume that my Casio keyboard can serve as one but want to make sure.

audio mixer - I would like to be clear how they prevent latency. Doesn't whatever they 'mix' still have to get into the computer and bounce around in there just like an 'unmixed' microphone sound? Is it just that they might use USB vs the line-in port or something like that?

sound fonts - a new one on me. I was assuming the sounds in the Casio were ok for starters. I'm vagely aware that there is some kind of Quicktime internal sounds now. That somehow the MIDI keyboard can be mapped to these computer software sounds. I assume you then hear them via the computer's speakers?

I'm not up to the point of worrying if the mic or the mixer is that good - it will sound better then i do without it (smile). Just so long as it works ok.

I'll be exploring the software forums etc - thats for the suggestion. Read enough jargon and it might make sence in context -
Thanks -
landlox

[swilder]

Midi Controller, If it has a Midi Out Port, it can be used as a midi controller.

An audio mixer prevents latency because it frees the application (cubase, logic, etc) from having to playback the incoming signal. You can just listen to the signal as it passes though the mixer.

A typical signal chain goes:

source-->mixer-->soundcard-->application

If you monitor through the application then it lloks like this:

source-->mixer-->soundcard-->application-->soundcard-->mixer-->speakers

Obviously these extra legs take extra time, therefore added latency

Using a mixer, you can monitor yourself as the signal goes into the soundcard.



Scott

[kaboombahchuck]

Yes your casio can be used as a midi controller (if it has a midi out port). You will need to get a USB or better midi interface. You would hook the midi out of the midi controller (casio) to the midi in of the interface (and vice versa if the controller also has a midi in port). If the casio is already USB ready, then you can plug the keyboard directly into the mac.

swilder explained the mixer thing...

Sound fonts are usually samples of sounds that can be put into a sampler (virtual or real) so that they can be triggered by any midi controller. Midi controllers are any device that sends midi commands. This includes your computer with a midi sequencing program, your casio (keyboard midi controller), my yamaha WX5 (wind midi controller), and so on... Sound fonts sound much better than some sounds that come from a synth (your casiio). Drums are the best example. Drum soundfonts are accuratly recorded sounds from a drum, so the sounds are much more realistic that what would come from a synth. Well produced soundfonts already come pre-panned. This pre-panning comes in handy (expecially with drum kits). Pre-panning also used to keep things like the actual stereo recording of a grand piano, that can then be trigerd by a midi controller. Wa-La! Your playing a stereo grand piano on your casio!

[scoutdavis]

I was checking out the software directory based on advice from this string. There are so many sub headers. If I'm looking to start out. Having a new Powerbook g4 1.5 and a very old Shure SM 57, but willing to spend some dough to buy the right items. How do I move next? I saw that the original poster felt that Logic was the first way to go. I read next that you have to have an audio interface but not necessarily if you get a mixer. For a newbie who wants to attempt to buy once and buy decently which way should I go? Any product recommendations?

[kaboombahchuck]

It's really hard to say what way to go when it comes to software... The best thing to do is download demo's and find which "speeks" to you the best..

The mixer responce is directed mostly to folks that don't have alot of money (or don't want to spend alot of money). In my opinion the MOTU 828 series firewire interfaces are just about the best you are going to do.

This post has been edited by kaboombahchuck: Thu 30 Sep 2004, 13:28