Protools--vs--????, lost in the digi jungle----HELP!! Options

i am starting from the ground up with a home studio ....i definitly want a mac i have my own website and as well as being a musician/composer...im also an artist

what i need to know is basicaly this;;

what is the best and most cost efficant way to build a home studio that will be album quality and provide me with the warmth i enjoyed with 24 track 2'' tape --is this possible on a budget of a few grand or am i fooling myself??--------is protools the right way to go and what kind of mac is best 4 what im doing-----HELP PLEASE---

[Mr.T]

You're fooling yourself indeed... Sorry but you won't be able to achieve an album with a DIGI001 costing about 1000$ while expecting the quality of a 2 inches tapes recorder that cost many many thousands dollars. Some guys will claim they can do that but they're just crooks in my opinion. The converters of the DIGI001 (or the MBox) are just not good enough. So, sure you can buy external converters but they will cost big money and still won't get nowhere near the quality of a 24 tracks Studer. The only DIGI's products that will provide an "album quality" would be the TDM or HD systems which cost big bucks. And still, some engineers will tell you that the quality is lower than real tape (but that's another more subjective subject...).

[damann]

in this game you're as good as your expertise!
you can currently buy a 24 track tape machine for under £2000, the hiss comes free!
i'm reminded of a long standing computer term..."garbage in, garbage out".
ALL records end up in a computer these days, if you're recording guitars, drums etc
either record them to tape or make sure you have REALLY good mic pre's to record them straight
to digital.

if you're making music with synths and samplers you don't have to worry about any of this.
your music will only ever sound as good as your'e capable of making it sound unless you employ
a properly trained engineer.
i'm currently producing a rock band and record them to 2" tape then transfer the audio into logic to mix. the sound is as good as anything else you've heard.

[Eric Seaberg]

I have been a Sonic Solutions user for the past 5 years and love what it does for editing, but it's NOT a multi-track system like PT or even Digital Performer. If you only want to spend a couple of thoushand, pickup an MOTU 896 (assuming you've got a Firewire capable Mac) and a copy of DP. With the extra $500 buy some good plug-ins and go to work. Rumor has it the newest version of DP will be able to talk to the new 192K Digidesign hardware, so there's ALWAYS going to be other ways to go.

My biggest dislike with PT is that you'll always be locked into using Digidesign's hardware.

[damann]

my biggest dislike of digidesign is the fact that they've systematically
RAPED my bank account whilst carefully avoiding all apple and pc native developements/developers that provide the end user with more inspiring code than their own!
if you're a creative "type" digi gear is the ultimate "pipe and slippers",
if you're an "engineering" type, you'll find them "quite comfortable".
your central issue is actually a case of what you put into the mac, not what the mac does to it!

good mic's, mic/pre's and compressors to record a live source into a computer are just the beginning if you're recording live instruments.
but it's the same with analogue really.
it's al in the mind...

[Mr.T]

if you're a creative "type" digi gear is the ultimate "pipe and slippers",
if you're an "engineering" type, you'll find them "quite comfortable".

You can also be of the creative type but still need to work and export your work quickly&easily to bigger studios, which, at least in here (France), are still more equiped with PT than any other softs...
You can be of the creative type as far as music and personnal projects are concerned but still need to earn some money working on "shity" projects (TV, commercials...) in "big" post studios (which mostly use PT). In this case, having PT at home helps a lot being more efficient when working in one of those big studios equiped with PT TDM/HD. A guy usually working on Logic or DP would be pretty lost...
Don't judge people and spit on them when you don't have the full picture...thank you.

Arses are like opinions,...

[damann]

for your information mr t
i work in all the big studios in london. olympic, townhouse, metropolis, sarm etc. not only do all of these studios use protools, they all use logic too!
transferring work from logic to tools couldn't be easier.
protools is used more as a tapemachine whereas logic as i said, is used for the creative stuff.
i've been using protools and logic software for about ten years, i was customer 25 worldwide for protools when it first appeared.
digidesigns' software should be way better than it is considering how long they've been in the business!!!
you'll also find me on the digi website(by my real name) talking about how i used sound replacer on steve gadd's drums while working on 1 of the 5 albums i've made with eric clapton!
chill out man, i'm allowed to have an opinion and it just happens to be based on nearly 20 years of solid PRO experience.
maybe next time you want to make assumptions about people in these forums, you should check out their profile...

[Mr.T]

you'll also find me on the digi website(by my real name) talking about how i used sound replacer on steve gadd's drums while working on 1 of the 5 albums i've made with eric clapton!  ;)
chill out man, i'm allowed to have an opinion and it just happens to be based on nearly 20 years of solid PRO experience.
maybe next time you want to make assumptions about people in these forums, you should check out their profile...

Dear Daman,
I don't need or want to check anyone's profile in order to know how good they are...I usually don't check someone's resume to know if he's good or not ... In fact, I don't give a damn about resume... You've made an album with E.Clapton?... Good for you!... Am I gonna bend over and lick your boots for that?... I don't think so... The fact that you've worked with Clapton doesn't mean a thing to me... It all depends on what you've done for the guy...and even if you should have produced/recorded and mixed his whole album, Clapton's records are, in my very small/ humble/ insignificant opinion, not what I would really called "creative stuffs"...far from it (with all due respect to the great musician HE is).
On the" Logic side", as I said, I was only speaking about the situation here in France (I know Logic is currently used in England). You're saying: "transfering work from Logic to tools couldn't be easier"... I'm not a Logic user, but I'm also a DP user, and I supposed you'll still get some troubles while exporting-importing from Logic to PT (due to each soft's"philosophy")->ex.: loops made in DP=>once imported in PT, it's bye-bye loops,start all over again...

Anyway... the saddest thing in all that is that I'm not even a huge PT fan and that I do agree on many points with you ("Garbage in, garbage out", Digi's gear too expensive and outdated on many points), I just happen to be a user convinced that, eventhough Digidesign has big big progress to make as far as its general policy's concerned, the soft is still pretty good and can be used for the exact same purposes as the other softs: post prod°, music, creative SFX... Thus, I'm just kinda surprised by your definitive assumptions about PT.
I've read your same kind of replies in many different posts (the ones were you say you have to be named Clapton to be able to buy PT... Funny now that I know you've worked for him...) and thought they sounded kinda subjective and exaggerated... That's all.
It's not the tools, it's mostly the man behind the tools...as long as the tools are good enough...which is the case with PT.

I'm done...as far as this subject's concerned.

[Francois Déchery]

please, keep cool guys!

peace...

[CeJeRo]

I personally have to say that I LOVE both ProTools and Logic because they are really designed for certain different reasons. Logic is great because it is designed for the composer, the Matrix editor is far superior than sequencing in ProTools or any other sequencer I've used (keep in mind this is simply an opinion, please no bashing I know others prefer other sequencers) so I use logic to do all of my sequencing. ProTools is great for editing and it's editing tools are great (again an opinion) the quality is also great when it comes to the TDM/RTAS/AS plugins. I have run into many neat but cheaper VST plugins available. My technique is using Logic to sequence the entire track. I export each track as one long audio file. Import each track into ProTools and EQ it, flange it, and edit it for sound effects. I'll also use ProTools for vocals. So IMHO I think that NO SEQUENCER is perfect and I think they work the best when used in conjunction with eachother. So concerning you're question as to what is better. It's all a matter of opinion. Many like Performer, many like Logic. Wars have been started reguarding which is the best, the best is really what you're personal preference is. Try out demos of each of the major sequencers and see which one you "bond with" if it's ProTools you have no other option than to get Digidesign hardware. I also am blown away that som have said that the Digidesign hardware is poor and expensive. I disagree (opinion yet again) I have found the inputs and outputs in the Digidesign hardware to be of the highest quality and thats the reason for the high cost therefor the cost is now justified. Though I do agree that for the beginning user, or hobbiest, the high end TDM systems are probably out of your league unless your family is really well off. If sub $1000 is ok for you to spend on one card by all means get the Digi001 the ability of ProTools and 2 focusrite XLR/1/4" inputs and 16 simultaneous inputs and outputs is really great (Guitar Center has them for 799 FYI) If you end up with a preference of Logic or Performer get the other hardware like the MOTU 828, or an M-Audio card (by Midiman) and use Logic or Performer. You can always decide to upgrade to ProTools MIX systems or HD systems if you so choose and use Logic and Performer on that hardware as well. So my two cents is simply see what you like, everyone is different, works different and thats good. Find out what YOU like. Sorry for going on, hope this helps somewhat.

[damann]

sound advice CeJeRo!
'though it's hard to love digidesign when they insist on having such a large
slice of your bank account on a regular basis.
ultimately, your point is perfect.
"bond with a sequencer, by checking them all out and bearing in mind what you actually require them to do for you".
then use the appropriate hardware!
peace, out...

[Mr.T]

Amen...
While we're here, has anyone seen this Midnight fellow?... This topic is more than one week old and no news, no thanks, no nothing... The replies may not have all been really constructive regarding the original topic (some of mines surely were not) but there were replies ! How rude is this?... Is this some new kind of hype behaviour?...Asking for advices and not even taking the time to thank people... strange world...

[Presto]

So, you want to set up a studio from scratch(?) and produce CDs and sell them from your web site.

You've got a budget of a few thousand $, and need to:
buy a mac, + an external hard disk, and good mic(s), and something to power the mic(s) and convert A/D, buy headphones and monitors, and improve your recording environment (that can be the biggest cost by far), maybe buy instrument(s), get a credit card payment page on your site, cigarettes, beer, even food sometimes....

I don't want to sound ungrateful for the advice of the biggies (I love it when they get their knickers in a twist), but I think they don't fully understand us littlies.

When you come back from your holiday, Midnight, if you want more specific help you should provide more info:

Do you still have that 24 track tape? And what else have you got? (Your PC maybe ok)
Do you want audio and/or MIDI?
Can you hear planes/birds/trucks/dogs/tractors where you want to record?
How many inputs do you need at the same time? I mean, are you the sole provider of input?

I started from scratch with a similar budget, only needing two audio inputs. I've now got an Mbox/PT based set-up. The quality of the Focusrite stuff is definitely not the weakest link in my chain. Even if the final quality I produce is a bit dirty by pro standards, as my music is (of course) better than the rest on my target market, it will sell millions from my brilliant future website!! Na!!!

I chose PT partly because I can send my final efforts to a pro for tidying up. I can't afford biggies' stuff at home, but I can afford a bit of help from one (wink, wink).

I get the impression I've already said this somewhere else. Perhaps I should write an article "Know-Nothing Musician Gets Equipped For Making Hit Records - Resources: musical genius (hum!), a few thousand euros, and MacMusic buddies"

Perhaps I should wait for midnight before starting.

Er, article, Midnight, no reply, journalist!!!!!!!!!! Hey, damn, merde, hilhe de puta!!!

Answer truthfully, Midnight. Did you only start this forum to get input for an article in MacTwirled where you're a paid journalist? If so, you'd better give MacMusic a good write-up. We've got some real meanies in sheep's (and monkey's) clothing here. Miss Kiki, are you ready?

Hum! Going neurotic! Better get some sleep.

[lepetitmartien]

uh oh! Presto, what did you ate this evening?

calm down… nice nice presto (tap tap tap) you really need to lay down some tunes. It's getting on your nerves.

no insults, no personnal attacks… (and midnight doesn't seem to be a macwhatever journalist look at his site

(now I can go on holidays, macmusic is quiet?)

[Presto]

Oops! I've gone an unglorious crimson colour. Thanks for the nudge lpm.

I think I've been living in France too long and have forgotton my English. I've a sneaky feeling "a few grand" is a little more than a few thousand $.

I shall bow out shamefully and let the biggies work it out together.

However, I don't think I insulted anybody, lpm, and definitely not Miss Kiki. I think she's great. I do like teasing though!

[Miss Kiki]

teasing is great if the teaser and the teased are on the same level,
unfortunately i'm not soooo good in english to percieve the beauty of what we call "second degré"...
this is the reason i'm not moderator in the english forum.
so help youself big boyz, you don't need me around!

[Mac1]

To answer the mans original question, Yes you can make an album with an M-box, I-book and the rest of your studio componets. Yes you can get the same quality of a tape. What will decipher your end product will be the way you process and master your finished piece. I'm using pro-tools an I-book, and some cheap $25 dollar mics and I submit my works to producers all the time. I'm constantly asked which studios I work with because they like the sound. When I tell them it's my own little one-bedroom home studio tha I created, their jaws drop.
Just my personal experience. No bashing!!!!!

[Presto]

Yeah! Great! And I believe Mac 1 works mainly with Midi which some say is crap on PT. I don't know - never used it.

Mac1, I didn't know you'd started using audio. I use a Rode NT2 mic with the Mbox, and my ears using Beyer DT 250 phones say the audio results are wonderful. (The dirt I mentioned is noise from outside, and probably lack of experience.)

Perhaps I'm biased.

Still, I have found that the sound of some commercial CDs is definitely not so good. I have some CDs of music from films (great quality even at 16/44.1) which I can use for comparison (I wonder if they used PT).

Ah! LPM! I've checked up and "a few grand" does mean a few thousand. Even if its pounds, not dollars, that still indicates that the littlies can give appropriate advice to Midnight. (OK, he's not a journalist. Nice site.)

Anyway, go for it Midnight! But do let us know if you read any of this. We don't like pissing into the wind.

[Presto]

I don't understand why there have been so few people answering Midnight's call for help - and fewer who have taken his budget seriously.

What's the matter with you all. His 2 posts have had nearly 800 hits. Just because a man has proved his worth in the music scene doesn't mean he doesn't need your constructive help - he asked for it, damn it!

Or do you believe Mr T when he says you can't produce reasonable album quality with a 'low' budget?

Many, many, many here (particularly on the French side of the site) say Digidesign is too expensive and tries to ruin you. Now 2 Mbox/PTLE users do think you can get sufficient quality for an album with a low budget, but how many of us have proposed other set ups? Strange!!

Also, does album quality mean better than most CD buyers can detect on their hifi stuff.

Just a thought: I have a load of scratchy jazz 78s from the '30s and some of them can no longer be found elsewhere (my dad was a jazzman). I'm sure if they were put on a CD they would sell well, even without tidying up the sound quality.

Did the original Apple team not bother to make computers because they didn't have the means of IBM? IBM didn't even take PCs seriously enough to use their means to write a good DOS. They prefered to borrow a cheap one that was already 10 years behind. MSDOS was crappy but I believe its owners did manage to make a bit of a living from it.

I think many musicians with low budgets and little experience can make great music and will be selling it over the web more and more. Don't worry about your music getting pirated - that means its good. Recording studios and big labels beware!


Heehee! I wonder if that puts the cat among the pigeons.

[Mr.T]

Or do you believe Mr T when he says you can't produce reasonable album quality with a 'low'
budget?

Hum...sounds like a shortcut to me my friend... Did you read the original post and the answer I gave?... The question was Can you get the same quality with a MBox or a Digi001 as you could with a 2inches tape recorder... Have you ever been using a 2 in ches tape recorder?...This sure was a pain in the ass to use, but I'm still positive...the sound was better than the sound provided by the 001!
To close the subject, as far as I'm concerned, YES you can get"reasonnable album quality"with a low budget...if you're doing techno or rap (or any music based on samples or synthetic sounds) but if, like me, you're putting together songs that involve real drums, bass, guitar, percussion, some chords and orchestral stuffs and singing, I think you should be aware (I know I am) that using the 001 is great to make (more than) decent demos (just wait you hear mine...some people think it was produced in a real studio) but when it comes to producing a record that's meant to be sold to the public... I want some good equipment, some room (how am I supposed to record huge drums using many mics in my small studio?!!...) , a real music engineer (which I know I ain't...at least not as much as a guy who's been working in music for the last 20 years non stop...)and real musicians (samples are fine but nowhere near the real thing!).
That's what I was trying to say, before we got carried away and went really OT...which doesn't really matter since the original poster is gone! I think he didn't even read the very first replies we gave him.
We are beating a dead horse here... I'm off.

[Presto]

I don't have much experience of tape sound quality, but I (and the rest of a choir) did record something with Nana Mouskouri onto 2" tape. I agree, it sounded great in the studio, but when I listen to the 33rpm LP, I wonder where it went.

Anyway, as music is sold and listened to on Cds now, it must go digital. Also, digital tools permit low budget ("a few grand") musicians to aquire and work on a complete vertical set-up, thus having complete control of each stage of their music creation, and even selling.

OK this means we can mess up our music at any of the stages, but if we don't, the final result can, in my opinion be quite sellable! Particularly if you use PT and can get a pro to use his PT to tidy it up.

I only use the sounds I record with my own mic (soon to become plural), with no midi and no sampling, and my ears say the sound is good. Will I lose it when it goes onto CD? Don't know yet.

Somebody is going to prove you can do it from home on a small budget, and I'm sure it will happen soon. I'll be putting my music up for sale on the web next year, and if it doesn't sell, I bet it won't be due to the quality of the sound.

Hey, everybody! You must believe, in some corner of your mind, that you could do it. Otherwise you wouldn't be here!

Why don't we have a vote? Oops, more work for Mr Webmaster!

[III777III]

VERY old NEWS

there are several MILLION people from the states to russia allready putting out work from there homes, even PROS (prince sold 1 million on the net)..

infact before internet even hit the scenes people did PRO WORK from home with the audio media 1 (not2). its the user not the audio gear,

if only the audio gear has the quality new user will HEAR the diference and learn to tweek better and wuicker with more bandwidth, with out that you can spend all night tweaking in reason with a mouse and noticing it skips 4dbs everytime u touch it..

So if its abut SOUND then allway get the best quality and you will allways get FASTER results, even if the app has poor editing ability, i rather sund good then look it..

Pro tools has great AUDIO editing abilities, but built mainly for POST not for writing tunes, you can but you will be missing more features in logic audio or even SPV if you only stay with PRO TOOLS.


try www.mp3.com or IUMA and you can sell your stuff there..

with the free mp3s going around you better gig or even just put demos online ofthe tunes ot forget it..

good luck

[Mr.T]

VERY old NEWS

there are several MILLION people from the states to russia allready putting out work from there homes, even PROS (prince sold 1 million on the net)..

Oh boy, this is never gonna end...can't keep myself from answering this one...
The original question is not whether you can sell music on the net or not...I think we all agree that you can. Prince may have sold a million records on the net, but please visit Paisley Park and tell me if all there is to see there is a G4 and a 001... last time I checked there was a "little more"gear than that...

[rickenbacker]

I don't think it matters what gear you're using - it still comes down to the song. As musicians and engineers (whether amatuer, semi-pro or pro), we listen with different ears to music compared to most people. The general public - the record-buying public - don't really care if the hi-hats sound a bit toppy or if the bass is too woolly. If they like the song and it's got a good guitar solo/chorus/lyric/whatever, that's all they care about. The production of the song isn't what impresses them when they first hear it. Maybe for some people, but for the most part it's the tune that counts.

Sometimes, you can get too hung up on the "production" of a song. Thousands of hit records have been made by people who wouldn't mind a G4 if they had the money, but made do with their PowerMacs/G3s/Ataris/PortaStudios, even (God forbid) Pentiums.

If you can't get a song right with your basic equipment and you're blaming your disappointments on a lack of "decent" equipment, you're looking at it upside down. I can think of at least half-a-dozen UK number ones from the past 5 or 10 years that were made in people's bedrooms.

[Presto]

"VERY old NEWS"

As Mr T says so rightly, Prince didn't do it with a low budget.

OK alot of people are selling from the net already, but what I meant is that one of these days, with all of us trying, somebody is going to sell a million on the net from an initial budget of just £3000, and all from home. Midnight may not be reading this, but his subject is quite pertinent (OK it's not strictly OS9 but that's where he put it).

"its the user not the audio gear"

Couldn't agree more! I believe my music is good (for the market I'm aiming at) - I must!!

"get the best quality (input) and you will allways get FASTER results"

I must admit that although I'm doing my composing at home, I re-record some parts (with my low budget set up) in a properly sound insulated studio (for free, and just up the road).

"if you only stay with PRO TOOLS ... you will be missing more features in logic audio or even SPV"

Will look into it.

" just put demos online of the tunes"

Of course!! Money, money, yummy, yummy.
Thanks for the encouragement, guys.

PS I use PTLE but, if I understand correctly, it doesn't seem to really matter which of the better apps you use, as long as what you put in is good, all of the links in the hardware/software chain fit together well, none are of significantly inferior quality than the rest, and you don't ruin the original sound by over-working it. Am I right?

PPS Thanks Rickenbacker. Yeah!

"I can think of at least half-a-dozen UK number ones from the past 5 or 10 years that were made in people's bedrooms."

But they were then worked on using expensive equipment?

[buryya]

To continue beating a dead horse on whether a commercial CD can be recorded in a home studio on PT - I"m somewhat ambivilent. As someone who has recorded in major studios in NY, LA and SF, I can without reservation claim that there is no comparison to a small project studios' output. I think the equipment in a pro studio plays a big role,but more importantly is the ears of a good engineer and producer. Years ago, in my own home studio before the age of PT, soft synths,plugs-ins,etc-with Vision Pro sequencing, an 8 track reel to reel deck for real guitar,bass and vocals, I laid down a tune I thought was real hot. At the time my neighbor was a hot shot LA engineer whom I invited in to take a listen. He redid the tune using the limited equipment I had at the time. Wow! What a fucking difference. I thought surely it was ready to print to CD. Yet I do agree that at this time PT can produce great demos.
A great pair of ears though is a wonderful asset.

[Mr.T]

The dead horse is coming alive...good points here.
But there's one thing none of you has mentionned...the role played by the majors and ADs or the editors in this silly game. Sure some artists have sold music on the net, but MANY MANY MANY more have sold records the old fashion way (CD). From then, unless you wish to produce and distribute your record yourself which, in my humble opinion and experience,is rarely bound to success, you'll have to give your baby to the majors (for production) or at list to a distributor (is that the word in English) and those guys will surely end up saying(in the best cases):"Yeah great songs! Are you ready to go to the big studio now?...". Now tell them you don't wish to do that since your songs are OK the way they are and see what happen...
Also, still in my opinion, self-production mostly means no advertising (no money); selling a record without first advertising(thru magazines, TV commercials, video clips...) it is a no no...unless you're called Prince and everyone is waiting for your next release...but most of us are not in this position...are we?...

[Synthetic]

I personally... I think you can record an excellent album at home with less than $1500 investment. But... it really depends on the music you are recording and the sound you wish to acheive. If you are a punk band that seeks the garage sound... with good recording technigues and mixing... then should be no problem getting a good quality CD from home. But... a lot depends on the person responsible for the actual recording and mixing. If they don't have the ear for it... then it will never sound good. If you want the sound heard from artists like Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac etc... then it will probably not happen in a modest home studio.

I think electronic musicians have a bit of the upper hand when it comes to recording good quality material. Most electronic musicians use the direct input approach with synths and samplers or use software based instruments and bypass the ever so tricky microphone recordings that depend on amplifiers and acoustics of the environent. I have more wuality recordings from indie electronic musicians than I have from indie rock bands for instance. The mix is another topic but the recordings are generally better.

Here is an example... MOBY...yes I know he makes tons of $$$ now days but he does all his recoding in his home studio (and I know his home studio is worth as much as some of our homes) but he does it all in his studio. He only relies on outside help with mastering of the finished product. He even creates the master disc using itunes on a g4. Now I have listened to his new CD a lot lately... it seems to have a bit more background noise in the recording than most studio releases but... the average consumer isn't going to realize that and it stills sells well.

I have reviewed a lot of music on broadjam.com and there are a lot of recordings I hear that aren't studio quality and probably done at home but the song itself was good enough that the cheaper recording didn't really bother so much. But on the other hand... I have heard some recordings that almost hurt my ears and quite honestly couldn't bare to listen to anymore. I think if you have good enough material to start with... and you make this material translate well on recording ... then quality sometimes doesn't have to be up to studio par. But, if the recording is so bad that it irritates the listener or they can't hear any detail or dynamics... then the material will never sell well no matter how well promoted.

If anyone is interested... there is a really interesting forum post happening at http://www.prosoundweb.com/ that is from a recording engineer know as Mixerman detailing his latest recording project. Its interesting to hear what really goes on in the big label studios.

Also, I will not that anyone interested in home recording should sign up for free subscription to TapeOp which is like an old school recording mag with some interesting reads about recording at home... studio or on location. You can find links to it at http://www.prosoundweb.com/ as well or I think you can go to www.tapeop.com

Just tossing in my 2 cents... ok... maybe it added up to 4 cents

ohh... i agree with T on the advertising thing... but lets not forget that a very small percentage of music being created would ever be accepted by the major labels for publishing and advertising... and those bigger labels are not always looking for the best music to sell... they want something that is going to sell NOW and make them profits and if your music doesn't fit into the current trend... your chances at getting a deal like that are slim to none no matter how good your music is. Lets also not forget that Joe Satriani sold his first CD's from trunk of his car. He was rejected at first but popularity soon grew and labels couldn't resist then.

[damann]

didn't i say all of this in the first place?
it dosen't matter whether you're using ssl, neve, pt, logic, edirol, or m-audio, it's about what YOU are capable of acheiving with it.
put mister 001 in front of an ssl desk and you'll find that what he does with it doesn't sound anything like as good as what mr ssl trained engineer does with an 001.
if you're wanting to record live strings etc , your "project studio" won't have the mics, pre's, rooms, etc to compete with pro facilities. however, if you're doing garage or whatever, maybe the pro studio won't be able to achieve the sound you want as easily as your humble project studio.
plenty of hit records are made in "project" facilities, it's about horses for courses and accumulated knowledge at the end of the day...
back to my favourite computer term.
garbage in/garbage out.
peace, later.

[burns]

ahhhhhhhh children !!!!!!!!

[Mr.T]

Ohhhhhhh Newbie !!!!!

[deleted]

put mister 001 in front of an ssl desk and you'll find that what he does with it doesn't sound anything like as good as what mr ssl trained engineer does with an 001.

Mmhh.. In the same situation, just replace the 001 with a 896 (just to name one :-) and you WILL hear the difference.
Sorry, but the A/D stage is VERY importnat, Digi001 is just not in the competition (really poor sound & dynamic IMHO, i did comparisons, even if subjectives)...

Sorry if i misanderstood the original post...

Bye.

[beezkneez]

hey i read that sting is recording right now using an m-box, a mac, and logic... italy or somewhere i ferget but that's gotta be encouraging for all us mac musicians

[damann]

hi beezkneez,
what this means in reality is that he's signed an endorsement with digi and they asked him to do some promotion work for the mbox.
i'm sure he's probably using it occasionally for putting ideas down when he's not in the studio, but will confidently place my bet that he's NOT making the album on this setup...
digi would obviously like to encourage us mac musicians to buy an mbox!
don't believe the hype.

[rickenbacker]

On this subject, is anyone out there using an Mbox with Logic? If so, how's that working out for you? I know we're not supposed to use the Mbox with anything other than PTLE (Digi frown on such activity!) but some reports from the frontline would be interesting.

[damann]

a good point,
yes, it works fine with logic.
there's an asio driver for it available on the steinberg site, that digi don't seem to want to mention!

[rickenbacker]

Hmm, interesting. I'm still caught in this weird OS 9/OS X limbo - I've got Logic 5.3.0, but not many interfaces have drivers ready for OS X. I think the Mbox has a decent sound for recording, but what are the chances of getting it to work in OS X?

[damann]

realistically, there is no limbo state,
os9 provides a great resource for making music, osx, well, dosen't!
the only reason to be making music with osx right now is your wanting to...
it will take at least a year for osx to gain the support that 9 already has! in the meantime, is an os more important than what you do with it?
i don't think so...

[rickenbacker]

"the only reason to be making music with osx right now is your wanting to... "

Yep! I'm not alone in this, though, am I?

[urbanmatador]

> "the only reason to be making music with osx right now is your
> wanting to... "

> Yep! I'm not alone in this, though, am I?

i agree, audio in osx isn't really viable yet, but i also agree with rickenbacker, i'm currently in the limbo state of using os 9 because that's what works, but preferring osx... i'm basically waiting to see whether protools or digital performer gets to osx first...

anyone have comparisions between those two (digi vs. motu)?

[Teiwaz]

anyone have comparisions between those two (digi vs. motu)?

Yes. i have a mate in the UK who bought a Digi001 and it was nothing but a nightmare for him. I told him to get rid of it and buy a MOTU 2408. He reports that the sound quality (freq range, dynamics) are way more transparent on the MOTU. Also, it happens to be reliable with his software (Logic). He does not miss No Tools / Pro Fools software at all.



PS: Hi Damann.

[Teiwaz]

"you can currently buy a 24 track tape machine for under £2000, the hiss comes free!"

The above quote came from Damann a while ago near the beginning of this topic. Spot on, dude!

Mr. T, I know this is an old topic, but I only just read it.



For your information, Damann IS talking from pro experience. He actually used to own an Otari MTR-90 2 inch machine. I know his studio and his gear. When he says the hiss comes free, he's talking from first hand experience, m8tey.



The old notion that you're not a "pro" unless you "work with the professional quality of a 2 inch Studer on a session" is total bo**ocks. We are now in the 21st century, and things have changed somewhat.



The name Apogee springs to mind when people mention Studers now.

[holli]

right on teiwaz, the 2408 is a top piece of kit. One feels that Motu are genuinely 'there' for you as well and this is a refreshing change - solid build, rock solid driver support (I don't miss my sporadic errors during mixdown of 20 minute tracks at all!). Thank god all my ins and outs are now balanced and of the same quality. It's been invaluable in getting my project studio analogue sound sources flexible and available in an efficiant way and seems my little 1604 desk is forming a healthy marriage with it based on mutual trust and understanding (?!).

In the 001's defence, when I put my first studio together it did provide all the things I needed in one box while money was tight. I was able to use the adat ins as a live mix in logic from the S6000, and preamps whilst obvoiusly not the greatest got several jobs done. Anyone doing battle with one at the moment (working solely one soundcard/one mac setup) has probably found that working at 24bit and using something like mic mod (emulation turned off) or similar, tube/analogue sat settings dialled in just a touch, then adding gain within the plugin to make up for the lack of gain at the input, 24bits give the plugin more to work with and dither, can do a passable impression of much better gear. It won't fool a pro, but then the 001 isn't really aimed at this market.

Audio quality aside, what really, really sucks however is the lack of foresite in the design of the drivers and the who's gives a s**t attitude regarding product support. It is not possible to work proffessionally with this hanging over every decision you make during a job or when aquiring new bits/software/computer upgrade etc.

I sold my 001 to a friend just starting out in the world of mac music, having expressed some reservations and problems I had had to overcome (driver conflicts etc) but confident it had run respectably-ish on my dual500. I went round to help him set it up and, oh great, because he was 'unfortunate' enough to own a quicksilver g4 it doesn't work. Dodgy's fix? Replace the motherboard!!!
Ever heard of buying a new mac and it not being compatible with your older SCSI legacy stuff for example? This isn't rocket science, it's just the bussing of data from one device to another and the suitable drivers to interpret it, which should presumably be able to be altered/rewritten to suit the host computer! Dodgy have had your cash and now you're just a target market who may be daft enough to hand over some more when your setup prematurely expires.

Teiwaz has been consistantly accurate in kit recommendations with regards making music on a mac for a long time now and is a chap with his finger firmly on the pulse. Take heed and save yourself alot of hard earned dosh!
Luv to all, Holli x

[Teiwaz]

Thank you, Holli. (By the way, Holli has an awesome Selmer sax, and plays it just as awesomely)...one serious musician.

All the best...

[holli]

Haha, lovingly hand built in 1952 and it's never crashed once!


So, will the new UAD mkII and the very sexy looking a/d converter be the ultimate soundcard option?

Those guys sure seem to know what they're doing. Anyone fancy a natter about this, maybe in a new topic. I haven't read too much about it in the press. Strange that often the classiest and most practical kit goes it's way into studios unnoticed whilst the problamatic kit gets loads of hot air expent on it!! I suppose if it works fine you can just lock up in the studio and get on with the business of creating strange and wonderful noises!

Holli x

[damann]

Haha, lovingly hand built in 1952 and it's never crashed once!  :)


So, will the new UAD mkII and the very sexy looking a/d converter be the ultimate soundcard option?

Those guys sure seem to know what they're doing. Anyone fancy a natter about this, maybe in a new topic.
Holli x

hey, i was lovingly built in 1969. a fine year.
i feel you really should start a thread on this topic, it appears to have longevity, not to mention of course, brevity(and girth).
the uad certainly has the potential to go all the way, and this seems to be a significant stage in it's development.
regarding the imminent "cambridge eq", this is a rare case of my actually looking forward to paying for a plugin!
those guys sure seem to know what they're doing...

[Presto]

I've got a nice Selmer alto sax from the 30's. Please do start a topic.

Coming back to the topic, did I say I like ProTools - great for audio and automation - with my Mbox it does what I want so I have little to add.

Shouldn't have said that, I'll get shouted at

[holli]

Strange that often the classiest and most practical kit goes it's way into studios unnoticed whilst the problamatic kit gets loads of hot air expent on it!! I suppose if it works fine you can just lock up in the studio and get on with the business of creating strange and wonderful noises!
-byme!

They're seems to be unrest in the ranks! At least in some of the other forums about the severe dis-age of the 001. Like I said, you just don't hear motu users venting or even bothering to argue the finer details, it just does exactly what it says on the tin!

I figure if they were just to drop the price it could be seen as a reasonable entry level card in a field without a huge amount of competition (this is why I'm keen to watch UAD, though this is a little higher up the ranking).

I guess I just feel bad as I sold my 001 to a fellow macmusic member and pal and it don't run on his machine . It gave me serious gip half way though a film scoring job of some considerable scale, prompting some very late sessions. After a week of serious stress, it was fine ever more -just like Presto's experience and did as it was required.

In terms of adding positive advice and constructive help, I owned one of the very first dual 500 g4's straight off the production line (the 'holy shit! how many plugins!' days) -with an 001, and with Teiwaz's help was able to solve alot of early bugs. Within several days, word spread and five more of the dual-baby's were in the hands of associates. I remember protools helpline staff being very grateful when I let them know about the trick of adding the 'z' to the digiINIT file and thus fixing the system hangs that occur on many systems. Also the occasional incompatibilty with USB printer drivers and their extension friends (what a pisser for printing orchestral parts from Logic ). Another biggy is that the 001 is very sensitive to upgrades that come from apple, if you have one of these little devils, my experience is always run an OS that comes straight off an installation disk. If you upgrade, by hook or by crook get hold of a complete new installer cd. If all goes horribly wrong, try a fresh system folder. It can be the only way to aleviate damage to system prefs and components that make the 001 function like the walking wounded! (I don't know what caused these errors, only that they don't happen any more )

So, I guess all considered its not too bad!

I don't think anyone's particularly saying 'this is good or bad' etc 'do this or do that', everone works 'different' to the benefit of an enriched musical scene -but I think it's fantastic these forums go some way to preventing the trend of technology industries from isolating the customer and restricting knowledge of product functionality to the end of marketing campaigns (microsoft anyone?). Surely good gear sells itself.

Presto, Selmer are just the same with saxes! Those new horns just don't play and they're sold on the reputation of those fine craftsman working in the early to mid 1900's - bought out by merging Adolf Saxes own company and staff, and some guys from Conn also. They weren't such good business men as the Selmer family but boy could they make a horn! When those chaps retired or passed on, 1960ish I reckon, there was noone left to make the tools and presses. Mark VI became the VII, pphheuughhh. Mines a super action hybrid by the way! It is essentially a VI but three years before production ran. I guess the tools were still being developed so it's pretty unique as much of the mods would have been hand made components, the bore of the body is not a usual S/A, broader like the VI's, so I guess that could be a one off as well! Sorry, I can't find a suitable lust-i-con to express with!

Don't they just record better than newer horns as well, much more solidity and depth but also with lots of touchy-feely metal texture in the high freq's, 10k up.

Are we allowed to talk about saxes by the way?!

Hope it's ok to natter away, i'm just in one of those moods


Damann, if you pick this up -can I ask you some advice on microphones/technique for recording sax? I'd love to learn more about this and share some stuff. Perhaps start a topic like Presto suggests?

Anyways, see you all in the UAD interface forum. Holli x

[droltam]

well this should heat things up......
I work in a Hi tech Music shop in Sydney and sell everthing from prosumer to Professional systems.

Weve sold over 1000 digidesign 001's most of which as a Turnkey Mac system.. Our issues have been literally NIL. If only all products worked this reliably. Yes, cubase running the direct i/o ASIO driver with dual processor macs required the dual processor extension removed, and only now with the dual mirrored macs has there been really any problem at all. The motherboard problem has now been addressed by apple themselves.

As for 001 and logic, many of the systems were also supplied with logic as it supports Direct i/o (not needing ASIO) and allows incredibly low latency,

Now for a answer….

Both products produce incredible results, with reliability and flexibility. No doubt if you run cubase/logic and a laptop you cant go past the sheer ease of interfacing and cost of a 828.
However the Logic/001 mac desktop combination is more flexible as not only does logic support Digidesign hardware with dedicated drivers but also gets you Protools.

Now you may think “ do I really need protools?” but I guarantee if you want to treat this system as a tape machine, (acoustic recording) the Protools/001 package is superior is ease of use and sound quality. Just as Digital clock and the AD/DA’s are important, so is the way the software handles its AUDIO. This is where Protools EXELS.


The best way to make your OWN decision.

First Objective Test
At a shop set up a system with Both an 828 and 001 connected. Get a good recording in OMF format. Load it into Logic and switch between Motu Asio and Direct i/o.

Second Objective Test
This time take the the same audio tracks from the logic song and import them into a Protools session. If the computer has enough ram you will be able to switch between Logic with the 828 and tools with the 001.

I hope this helps in you reaching a decision. Remember its your ears.

[damann]

Damann, if you pick this up -can I ask you some advice on microphones/technique for recording sax? I'd love to learn more about this and share some stuff. Perhaps start a topic like Presto suggests?

Anyways, see you all in the UAD interface forum.  Holli x

hi holli,
in my experience, a u67 or at worst a 414, placed 1/2 feet away, cardioid or hyper-cardioid pattern, just above bell end level, usually does the job rather well. use a pair set hard left and right facing in a bit towards the sources for section work. definitely insert a decent compressor over it, set this at 2:1!
sorry, i'm having trouble concentrating here, i'm sure i can hear some idiot salesman talking absolute cr@p as i try to type this!
i'll catch up with you in the uad interface thread...

[Teiwaz]

Yes...rather annoying spurious background chatter...much like the pop up ads you get when surfing the web...

Now where is that wonderful pop up dodgydesign salesman window zapping software?

[Presto]

Bloody hell! Damann and Teiwaz!

Should we consider this Topic as your private chat room?

I think you are very insulting. I don't understand why.

[holli]

i can never really understand why people get obsessed with 'having protools', what do you mean Droltam?
The 001 is not really protools and if you have logic, why bother with their software. Sure though, I remember the latency being exceptionally low.

Many people new to audio gear can be sold almost anything at the least mention of the aforementioned company! Proceed with caution, the world of audio is changing fast and it's not enough to go on past reputations any more.

.. yes, fellow Brits here do have a fairly vigorous debating style!! It's meant with the best of intent I'm sure. We have a cultural tradition in England of poking things very hard with sticks, and if they stay standing they're probably very solid. It's all usually alright once you've stopped crying -we call it character building!

[lepetitmartien]

Just a quick word to tell again that tis forum is on PT vs something, NOT on recording saxes. Create a thread for that PLEASE.

It ain't a private chat thread either. (I think it's not the first time I have to interfer on this issue (grrrrrr)

Mr Holli, whatever character building is in England, it's against the United Nations Chart of the Rights of the Child. And I prefer polite informative threads than boxing rings.

Now back on PT vs alternatives which is the subject…

[holli]

hey,

a. yes I did start another thread concerning uad gear, forward thinking gear chat, and recording saxes as I hopefully found a shared interest with Presto (please tell me more dude ) If anyone has got all this out of their system, see you in the UAD thread for some enlightened futurology.

I was talking about saxes as a comparison Digi vs. Selmer, two companies that continue to sell gear based on past reputations who now need to pull their fingers out. Well, not that I care that much..

b."You are not your gear" Why are people taking criticisms of kit personally?

I thought freedom of speech and the right to express an opinion was important? Yes, it's not right to poke children with sticks but aren't I allowed to poke my 001 with a big stick! This is humor and I am refering to the equipment, not the owner. If "it" stands up to criticism, it's propbably very solid.

If hearing someone having a pop at your kit troubles you, I fear it may not be any great sentimentality or sympathetic anthropomorphism, but the knowledge that your hard earned dosh is sat in a companies bank account who don't give a s**t about you.

I have never read a single personal criticism to another member, nor would I want to, this is not the same as a vigorous deabte on the ethics of people who want our dosh. 'I've sold 1000 of these babies' is not justification enough to add virtue to a product. Is it wise to listen to the advice of a salesman who spends all day selling stuff to make a living, or a producer/musician who spends all day pushing the kit to it's limits?

c. Please read the MANY posts to this forum and others where I have tried to offer advice, as a previous experienced 001 owner, and extolled both it's virtues as a complete project studio solution for the newly initiated to mac music, and it's pifalls with lack of consistant compatiblity, customer support into the future and indeed design foresight in many cases.
Let's be really honest about it's place in the market and stop pretending to friends/collegues that if you have an 001 you have a protools rig. Has anyone heard the noise on those unbalanced outputs..geeeezz! It's an outmoded idea anyway.

luv Holli x ...tag!

[Teiwaz]

Now there's a man who knows his salt from his pepper...

3 cheers for Holli! Spot on m8. So refreshing.



Pro what?

Digi who?!

001 = 0?

[droltam]

Protools with Digi hardware sounds better than Cubase/Nuendo or logic.
Thats the answer.

[lepetitmartien]

For info, a smiley was missing in my post… corrected, better now.

And just remember that poking things is not everyone's habit in the world. You should be aware of that. A bit…

And the one going astray the most is our beloved Damann So don't take everything for you

I don't have much time, as I said in an other thread to be as present as I was. But in the current state of the soft of the forums, if we want them to be a good knowledge base (which it is already): the best is to have "on the topic" (as narrow as possible) threads. Sorry but it's like that.

Sorry if i don't use softer methods, I JUST DON'T HAVE TIME.

incident closed! thank you

[Tone]

[ I am an amateur who works with a home VST with no interest in the sale of prorietary products ]

I have been fortunate to find this splendid forum to help in my progress forward from Newbie a few short months ago and I respect the people who make themselves freely available to offer advice on relevant matters to those less knowledgeable on the matters in question.
I read with interest, and admiration, the problems and the methods suggested for solving the same.

However, I see despite the moderators attempts to channel the purpose(s) of the forum(s), it is obvious certain individuals are still misusing the stage for expressing an AVID desire to desparage one company in particular and, though I ignored it for a while expecting this would be a brief outlet of frustration (which I admit to being prone to on occasions), it is turning out to be systematic and continued.

Yes, free speech by all means but please don't take the silence of users of the products/company you hate (myself included - silent until now) as a licence to continue with unproductive name-calling. Personal and persistent attacks can only serve to devalue the aims of the forum and cast doubts on the motive and impartiality expected of those who are involved in providing advice.

We users exist at all levels and so denegrating a certain function for this or that reason compared to this or that Software does not mean it renders the targetted equipment useless and our choice(s) deemed to be determined by fast talking salespersons instead of logical research and advice.

I understand your need to impart information but please make it constructive, detailed and do it (poke the stick?) once and then leave us to decide.
I know there are other forums if I don't like what I read but this one seems to me to be more worthwhile. If I didn't believe this I wouldn't be taking the risk of a worsening the situation by answering in such detail.
I hope I havn't alienated anyone by making this earnest request.

Sincere thanks to those who have afforded me patient help and assistance in the past
Tony

[Teiwaz]

In response to droltam's quote:

"Protools with Digi hardware sounds better than Cubase/Nuendo or logic."


One just cannot come out with a comment like that without backing themself up with alternative system details! And it comes across as if droltam's talking about a SEMI-PRO Digi product here, the Digi 001...!

So, allow me to recap...Protools sounds better than what software with what hardware?! (a large grey area here)...One of those 001's with PT sounds best?? Again I ask, compared to what software/hardware? Or is droltam talking about a TDM PT system pitted against all other variations of software/hardware?!

First of all, have you ever heard Apogee's high end products? Such as the Apogee AD-8000SE? This unit replaces a digidesign 888/24, and sounds as good as, if not better than, a digidesign 192 (despite the fact that the Apogee has a maximum sample rate of just 48khz.)

Or how about Swissonic's fabulous AD/DA convertors? (Thought I had better mention them, I haven't before now...I slap myself on the wrist...)

Or is a Digi 001 better sounding than an Apogee AD-8000SE/Trak 2 running, for example, with Logic/Nuendo/DP? Is this what you're saying, droltam?! If so, then you may need to do some very in depth homework on pro kit...oh dear.



On a visit to Apogee's offices, I had an extended conversation there with one of their chief product designers and he concluded that the fattest sounding system of all taking ALL platforms (soft & hard) into consideration was...suprise suprise, Steinberg's Nuendo on, of all things, a PC! But that's WITH Apogee convertors, not Steinberg's own hardware. And we're comparing that system with a HIGH END Protools system here, the PTHD system with a 192 interface...NOT a Digi 001!!



I don't even use a PC, or Nuendo, so I'm not biased in this respect. I'm just relaying the facts as I know them.

Another interesting thing to note is the informed opinion of a highly respected drummer here in LA, and he concluded that out of all the digital sessions he has done to date that, a session he did using Apogee convertors and (again) Nuendo was the best sounding hard disk recording he had ever heard. He went on to say that he had never heard his drums so dynamic, so full of detail, and so punchy.

A drummer of his experience and professionalism, who has worked with everyone from Seal to Mick Jagger, knows the ropes, and knows it when his kit sounds good coming out of a pair of monitors.

As a Logic/Mac user, I use Apogee convertors with TDM/ASIO software, and I have to point out that you can't really argue with the fact that Apogee, along with Prism and Swissonic, are among the untouchables when it comes to AD/DA conversion.

As for how actual SOFTWARE performs in terms of audio quality, according to our man at Apogee:

1) Nuendo (PC - shock horror!) and Apogee convertors.
2) Logic Audio Platinum (Mac) and Apogee convertors.
3) Digital Performer (Mac) and Apogee convertors.
4) ProTools (Mac) and Apogee convertors.

To say that ProTools is the best sounding, sounds a little, in my own humble opinion, uninformed. Saying that their HARDWARE sounds the best is really laughable, especially when you're implying that the piece of kit in question is a Digi 001!! That's their budget $700 interface, and it sounds like CARP!



They used to 'sound' the best (they pioneered the first system, Sound Tools). But things have changed and we all have to keep jumping through new hoops in order to not end up convincing ourselves that something that used to be No.1 still is.

It's a painful reality for those who swear by their Digi stuff, but only because you, as an owner of PT, have invested a lot of your time creating your files in their software, and just as you get used to an old pair of slippers, you refuse to stop wearing them despite the fact that they are by now a bit tatty and the soles are wearing thin.

It's an interesting debate. Another important point here is that Bob Clearmountain co-founded Apogee, because he wasn't satisfied with the AD/DA convertors on the market.

I would like to hear from any true professional out there who owns or who has owned high end Apogee hardware to inform us that Digi hardware sounds better (and I'm definitely not referring to a Digi 001 here)...because correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person who would actually say that Apogee ain't as good, is someone who works for Digi...or sells Digi stuff. That wouldn't be you, would it droltam?



PS: Tone, it wasn't out of frustration that we have this opinion. It was out of dissatisfaction followed by liberation (going down the local music store and buying cheaper, and better kit.)