Mac Mini + Live Multitrack Recording Options

[Quintron]

Hi All, glad to have found this knowledgable spot!
First off I know hardly anything about Macs except they have a good track record as stable units good with audio applications.

As I'm sure is the case with many others I have become enamoured with the new Mac Mini but am wondering if it will be sufficent for what I need.

I run a small Jazz CLub in Ireland and for a long time was considering a laptop to record live gigs there. I was looking at Macs and PC laptops, but on a budget of next to nothing with the venue, all desirable options were off limits.

With this new machine there is some hope. I am looking at the 1.4Ghz mac mini with 512MB RAM option. I would also get an Edirol FA-101 usb capture card and was wondering how good these would be at live multitrack recording using Logic or Cubase (Have both). I would need to record usually up to 6 Mic imputs or 4 MIc ins with maybe 2-3 Line ins at a push. The usual setup for a night is about that. Sometimes less. Mix it down when I get home. What can I expect from this box with the FA-101 (or indeed a cheaper alternative if anyone knows??)?

Any options / help / advice greatly appreciated!

One of the sellers of this for me is that it would also be an excellent replacement for my ailing PC at home.
Adding a KVM switch I'd have the best of both worlds. Not a laptop, but a unit in the two places I need it most. (Its' lighter to transport than a lot of Laptops) and a hell of a lot cheaper!

If my above expectations are unrealistic then caould anyone suggest the max abilities of this unit for live recording. I could work something out.

Sorry for the barage of questions.

Cheers in advance,
Quintron.

[wroyj]

all i know is my mac pwerbook has 256k of memory and using
garage band i get buffer overruns just taking a stereo
feed from the board - so i'd say get as much memory as
you can afford up front

also there may be better options than garage band
i;ve been using a tascam 2488 for live recording and
it is not a bad unit for the money

*wroy

ps - if i come to Ireland can i play at your club - i do
a folk jass thing

[Quintron]

Hey wroyj. Cheers for that. Although I wouldn't use Garage band for live recording. Logic or Cubase SX I'm more familar with and I understand that they are possibily less processor intensive than GB.

I read that the HD in the mini is a laptop 2.5" 4200rpm so I guess it's too slow. I have an external USB HDD (Converted Internal - 160GB 7200rpm) that I could use but it was formatted on a Windows computer. Is it possible I could use this drive for the mac mini? Would I have to reformat could I partition some of the drive for the mini? Any ideas. Cheers.

[shaneblyth]

my external firewire drive is fat32 windows format and osx can read and write to it no worries
i keep it that way as i plug it into my motif es keyboard which can on read fat usb drives
i save (yes it does firewire 800 as well)all my digital performer audio to it so it works sweet for me.
my powerbook is basically the same as the mac mini... same speed same bus speed same hard drive (internal) so it will work as well as a powerbook... as for garage band 2 i believe it is less of a hog than 1... alot of the cpu usage in garage band is that the softsynths have alot of effects on them standard.. check it out.
maybe you could try traction which is easier on the system... mackie make it and then there is metro which alot of people like... or even express logic 7...
max out the ram to 1gig though there is only 1 slot

This post has been edited by shaneblyth: Sun 16 Jan 2005, 06:14

[editbrain]

i suggest getting a powerbook instead.
then get a lacie big disk 500gb drive fw 800.
and then somthing like a prosonus firewire audio unit.
and then logic express 6 or 7.
if all you are doing is capturing you will be fine with express.

and you will be good to go.

i record dj sets here in the states up to 5 hours long with my 12" powerbook and peak audio. also do stereo recordings of live shows the same way.
believe it or not. i can do this with the internal drive, but sometimes i carry a fw 400 external.

happy recording,
editbrain

[javiert]

I read that the HD in the mini is a laptop 2.5" 4200rpm so I guess it's too slow. I have an external USB HDD (Converted Internal - 160GB 7200rpm) that I could use but it was formatted on a Windows computer. Is it possible I could use this drive for the mac mini? Would I have to reformat could I partition some of the drive for the mini? Any ideas. Cheers.

Hi to all!!!

You can use your external USB HDD Windows Format in you apple whitout any problem.

But Notice that the USB couldn´t give it to you the speed needed to a live multitrack recording, if I was in that trouble i´d prefer to use a Firewire HDD.

If you are thinking to record in your apple and then work in your PC at home you could use the HDD formated for Windows, but if you only will work on the Apple then use the Max OS Format.

You should try to use a interface to record Firewire... it´s most stable

Cheers!!!

[Tree Leopard]

Quintron,

A thought about your objectives...

If you run a jazz club in Ireland then I'd imagine you'd have some very good artists on your books.

If these live recordings are going to be important for you, for the artists and for the Irish (or even European) public then I'd be thinking about at least doubling your budget. Which means... new purchasing scenarios and (hopefully) a much more satisfying result.

Good music deserves good audio.

Does this make sense? Or am I gleefully making brazen assumptions?

[editbrain]

i agree that you need to have good hardware for the job, but an ibook with logic express and a presonus 8 input firewire with an external drive should be just fine, and you would not have to double your budget.

editbrain.

[Quintron]

Hi Tree Leopard et al,
Firstly Cheers for all comments!
@ Tree Leopard, You are correct in assuming that the recordings would be important to me both as a continuous archive and some with possible release dates etc.
As it stands I have outside engineers in ocasionally to do professional recordings of some acts and others with good setups have offered their Computer based services with some excellent results.
Problem is, we are currently not funded by anyone but ourselves and while I would love a proper permenant solution at the venue, I see the above option as a cheap starting point with which to furnish regular recordings to other organisations so that they may see the benefits of a proper solution, so, your comments are bang on, but the cash is not there (yet) to facilatate that dream set up. Mores the pity. Good music does deserve good audio..

AS a bridging unit to a better system a year or so from now I was worried that the Mac Mini even with 512 ram would not be adequate and hence the original post.

The Mac Mini, though would solve a lot of problems:
:Help take the load off my ailing PC.
:Record Gigs at venue,
:Its bloody cheap
:Now I can afford an FA-101 or similar and a Mac from the same price as an ibook.
:Don't need Monitor Keys etc have too many bits and pices lying idle....
:Fellow musicians have raved about the virtues of Macs for their work...
:So, Mac has a decent rep as an audio processor and I want a go.. :-)

SO based on Mac User comments here I hope that my assumption is correct that the Mini with 512 and external HDD coupled with a good SoundCard and Logic or Cubase SX could scrape it! Cheers again all for taking the time to reply!
If yer ever in Dublin and ya like jazz...

This post has been edited by Quintron: Tue 18 Jan 2005, 01:08

[editbrain]

well. if you add the cost of a monitor, keyboard, mouse, audio device, and recording application. you are way over the cost of this setup which will do exactly what you need.

ibook - 999US
external hdd - 150 to 200US
presonus firepod comes with cubase 48 channel application - 599US

totally portable and capable.

[Marcia]

You will be just fine with either the mac mini or a powerbook. FYI... I use an older 1Ghz Powerbook and have recorded 10 track simultaneously with the MOTU 828 breakout box. And that was with the Mac's small internal drive. The (very) important thing to note is that you must max out your RAM for the best recording/mixing/effects results. I have 1Gig of RAM in mine and, though older, it is a smokin' workhorse. So you should be plenty fine, my friend.

When people say their computer isn't good enough and they are running only 256 Mg of RAM, well... no wonder. You can't run a marathon if you don't have any calories in your bloodstream.

[Tree Leopard]

Quintron,

Ah, but I did make one brazen assumption - that you'd have just a little more cash at your disposal. I've got a better feel for what you're doing now.

Ok, at the risk of addling you brain all the more...

...Marcia just mentioned the MOTU 828 mkII. I'm guessing it can't be too much more that the Edirol. The 828 mkII comes with Audio Desk 2.x, the little sister of Digital Performer 4.5 (which = upgrade path).

The drivers for Mac are very stable and the DP / MOTU forums are very good. For recording similar material, I can vouch for satisfying results. Could work well for tracking with a Mac Mini. It an option.

Macs aside, I hope this first step is very successful for you and the venue!

Btw, which venue?

[Quintron]

Cheers again for all posts,
@ editbrain, Yes you are correct that all these extras add up. I have at least two extra monitors and a bunch of Keyboards lying around so no added costs for me thankfully. I have an external HDD also so I jyust have to worry about the mini.
@ Marcia: Good to read that. 10 tracks! Nice to know they are available if needed... ON the issue of Ram I'm going to wait and see what others do when they get their Minis shipped. There are conflicting reports online as to whether or not you actually void your warrenty by installing more ram yourself. (the e430 asking price for 1gig apple installed ram is a bit rich). After reading reports it is still unclear if you will void warrenty simply opening the box or void warrenty if you break one of the clips while doing so. I feel you should be able to upgrade yourself, if not it will I presume become a talking point about possible underhand tactics by Apple to lure unsuspecting customers into unnecessary upgrades once on site. You can get 1gig ram online in the US for about e150 bring the total cost of a mini to e700 approx. Still reasonable. I guess they will be opening them up and disecting them within days so we'll know soon. From what I can see the ram upgrade is a pinch once the case is opened. I think it should be simple regardless. If its easy I'll get a base spec then do upgrade myself if not I'll have to suffice with 512MB.
@ Tree Leopard: The MOTU you and others mentioned sounds excellent. The whole audio capture card thing is a grey area for me at the moment so suggestions like these are welcome. I chose the FA101 as I've seen a few in action and they come highly recommended but I'm sure threre are quite a few that would suit. RE Budget, Yes its a concern but upgrade options are something I'll have to bear in mind. With savings on a mini I could stretch to a better audio unit I suppose... The math looms.... :-)
The venue is The Boom Boom Room, Dublin.
I don't know the rules on hotlinking but a bit more info can be found here.. A fledgling site I should add.. something else I have to work on
hxxp://www.theboomboomroom.tv
All the best,
Q.

[JBeat]

Quintron, I just bought the 1.42GHz Mac Mini and upgraded to 512MB or RAM. I'm a newbie to Macs, and Garageband, but I've had as many as 12-15 tracks going at a time with absolutely no lag or hiccups. As for swapping out the RAM, it will not void the warranty, and is not that hard once you see how to do it. There are videos on the web that show you how, check out: http://www.macworld.com/hot_topics/macmini/index.php for detailed instructions. The main drawback to the mini is that the maximum RAM is 1GB and it is a single chip, so you have to remove one to install one. I love mine, and now I know why everyone thinks Macs rock, because they do!!

Good Luck.
JBeat

[gogmagog]

if the budgets is a constraint why not install a MAC desktop in your sound booth (on a table next to the mixer) if you get a second hand
mac tower this would reduce costs significantly - but iam guessing that portability is also a req. Iknow people who are finding it hard to give away gargantuan old macs

i think you should avoid the mini mac like the proverbial....its a little on the limiting side

Well, now I'm confused. I was going to buy a mac mini and upgrade to the DVD Rom and the iGig memory. I'm maybe glad I found you guys before I did it.

1) I was thinking of using a Firewire Presonus FirePod up front to record, say, two acoustic guitars and three vocal mikes up front. (This is the smaller of my two bands). Will the system be too slow to do this?

2) How many songs can I record in a row with three vocals and two guitars before I have totally maxed out the memory and the 80 gig hard drive? (I was expecting to be able to use this as a live recording application, but I fear that there is not enough memory in the world).

3) In relation to the first question -- I am planning on using garage band at this time. (I know NO recording except for old analog stuff -- a 16 track recording class in the late 1970's, other analog multitrack studio experience as a musician from the early 1980's, and one bit in the mid' 90's where I just played my part and went home.) Will Garage band even do multiple track recordings this way? If not, I guess the consensus in another thread was Tracktion?

3) Firepod is a firewire deal. I relation to question number 1, how do I get a bigger, faster, harddrive on-line given that I have used up the Firewire plug on the FirePod? Do they have hubs? I should warn you, I have had trouble with hubs diving me insufficient power messages before.

Just FYI -- I would buy a laptop, but I have bad shoulders and tennis elbows. I also write, can't afford two computers, and can't type on a laptop all day.

So it's a problem.

Thanks for any input in advance.

[editbrain]

Kate,
For your sitution i would recomend a G5 iMac 20" display. get as much memory as you can.
the firepod has an extra firewire port for you to use a hard drive in a chain, but if you get the iMac you would get a firewire 800 external hard drive, and the firepod would use a firewire 400 port. the firepod comes with cubase sx which is a pretty good 32 track recorder with support for virtural instruments. also the iMac would come with garageband 2 so you would be set either way.

i think that your best choice is an G5 iMac. semi portable, doesn't take up much room, powerful (way more power than the mini), and comes with a nice apple display.

have you considered this route?

happy recording,
editbrain

Thanks, editbrain, I am looking into it. I think the middle one with a gig of memory maybe -- One question, though. Why are you suggesting the 20 inch screen?

Question for all -- am I trying to ask to much of poor little personal computers? I mean, maybe I should be not expecting so much of something that is meant for an all around computer use tool -- Maybe I should just get the mini with 512 and the cheaper drive. I can do my browsing and my e-mail and my writing for $599. Then I can save up and get a better maching for recording like several thousand dollars? (yeah like that's gonna happen any time soon)

Really -- am I asking too much for even an iMAc to do -- real time multitrack recording??

Thanks

Kate

[Quintron]

Hi again all,
ALl I can say about Mac Mini is that a lot of my friends use Powerbooks and ibooks to multitrack record gigs between 4-8 instruments and they have never had any complaints. The Mac Mini while underspecced compared to an iMac etc is somewhere between an ibook and a powerbook (with 512 ram min) in terms of its innards so I really don't see it as a problem for recording. I too have gone off the Edirol in favour of the firepod for the 8 X bal channels and recommended preamps.

I'm going to go for it with this set up.

Mac is ordered and I'm getting the firepod in a few weeks. I really dont see it as a problem for recording.
Its not a top specced setup by any means BUT it is adequate and that really is sufficent for what I need.

I would recommend an external HD to record but even adding all of these items up you still save over the laptop counterparts provided you have a Monitor and keyboard lying spare which a lot of folks seem to have.

Will it multi track record live? From what I've scoured all over the net and firsthand info from experienced users.
It will.
Thats all I require, in fact while not ideal you could get quite decent results with an even lower specced machine.
People have been live recording and pushing their macs for years.

The only thing I'm confused about is the direct monitoring aspect on say a Firepod. If I send all my imputs to the firepod to record and then send the signal out of the firepod and into individual channels on the desk for a seperate live mix, does the direct monitoring mean that this method doesn't tax the processor to much hence the "no latency direct monitoring label"?

All the Best,
Q.

[editbrain]

well the 20" for one has the greater screen area. that is going to come in usful when you have to arrange and edit your recordings. you will have plug-ins open an arrange window maybe a mixing board view all open. why would you not want the largest screen possible so that you can see better what you are doing?

i have to say that if you think that the iMac will not do what you want. how are you going to accomplish what you want with a less powerfull computer.

i record on the road with my powerbook it is a 1st generation 12" 867. it does fine. i use logic 6 pro on it.
in the studio i have a dual G5 2x2 with lots of ram, and a 20" cinema screen.

i was just suggesting a computer that you would not out grow in 6mo to a year once you started getting into your projects.

happy recording,
editbrain

Thanks, I really appreciate your input, Q. At the end of your reply, you stated and asked, "The only thing I'm confused about is the direct monitoring aspect on say a Firepod. If I send all my imputs to the firepod to record and then send the signal out of the firepod and into individual channels on the desk for a seperate live mix, does the direct monitoring mean that this method doesn't tax the processor to much hence the "no latency direct monitoring label"?" And this brings up yet another question from me (I got a million of them.)

Obviously, I am not the person to answer this, because I didn't really understand the question (sorry I'm so ignorant). But I think this may be a question I am also confused about. Apparently, you plug eight things in -- they run into the computer on the firewire port all together, and then all eight are magically is separtated back out into the same eight tracks you started with which you then can workwith, fix, and prettify separately once they are on your computer? Or are you automatically mixing down to (say) stereo as you record, and there's nothing to be done about it? Either option is ok, I just want to know before I buy.

If what you record is what you get, I'm just curious about what you do if (say) one track, i.e., harmonica, is too loud and you need to make it softer. If you're stuck with it ok, but I would like to know that now.

Why? Well, here's an example: There's a digital recording of one the two bands I am in. I hate it because I played really, really, badly that night. In particular, there is one totally obvious blooper note in the middle of a lead that I wanted to get rid of, but the guy who digitally recorded it said it was impossible to remove. And then the guy who digitally recorded it divided the songs into tracks and did the whole thing up as a CD, complete with liner notes et al. I think he thought he was doing us a favor, but I have noticed no enthusiam amongst the rest of the band for marketing this little gem (yet we sell three others).

Neither of the bands I'm in is perfect. Not by a long shot. That's why I need to know whether post production manipulation will be possible with my planned set up, whether it's a mini-mac or a iMac with a FirePod front-end.

Finally, I can't even begin to figure out what Q meant by "no latency direct monitoring label," so when somebody answers Q's question, could they please explain his question, too? So I can understand it? Thanks!