Imac Or Ibook For Music? Options

So, I'm a pc-man, but SO tired for PCs... I think I'm not the only one... So I've been thinking about a mac. I make music with computer, so I need some power, but also stability (which PCs don't seem to offer...). I can't afford those G5s or even G4 (the one which look like computer, not iMac, eMac, or laptop...). PowerBook is too expensive too. So my choices are iBook and iMac. I thought about the 800Mhz G4 (12") iBook, or maybe the 933Mhz G4 one. How big is the difference in speed of those two iBooks? I would probably take that 640mb memory (which is the maximum) for those. So is the 933Mhz one worth the extra 200-300€ (or something like that in $s). And then the other one choice is the iMac (15") There's 1Ghz G4 processor in that and the maximum ammout of memory is 1Gb, which is more than in iBooks. Also, the memory seems to be a bit faster in iMac, because it's DDR 333Mhz, while it's DDR 266Mhz in iBooks. That iMac would cost about 1600€ (again, something like that in dollars), whit 1Gb memory (if I won't buy that memory from apple, cause they seem to have quite expensive memories). So, which one would be the best choise (price/quality ratio)? And can you say, what kind of pc do those macs match, (I know that the Mhz-ammount is not compareable). If you bother answer, I would really appreciate that, cause I really don't know anything about macs, and I don't believe in salesmans speaks.

[Metro SE]

This is not a complete answer but assuming you want reliability you will need to go with Mac OS X.

Since this is the case you will probably want a desktop model (not an ibook) simply because of hard-drive performance. The drives in the iBooks are very slow (4500 I think) and this will limit your ability to record/playback digitial audio on it. Of course you could always upgrade to a high-speed drive (7200 RPM) at added expense.

[xingu]

I've been perfectly happy with my 15" iMac G4 700 (only 384 RAM). Then again, I mostly record straight audio (up to 12 tracks) and rarely use virtual instruments, so I have pretty minimal requirements. Regardless of your setup, an external firewire drive is recommended to keep your recorded audio files separate from the OS/programs - this should run around $200/euro.

Yea, I forgot to say in here, but yes, I will buy an external hard-drive for audio. That iBook hard-drive, is it too slow for OS and programs too? And also I will buy exteral sound'card', probably M-Audio Audiophile USB (or something like that).

This post has been edited by petronome: Thu 1 Jan 2004, 11:54

So, anyone know what kind of pc (Mhz, RAM etc...) does, for exapmle that 800Mhz ibook (with 640mb memory) match? I would like to get some kind of knowledge about macs power. I really don't know how to compare them with PCs. And what do you think, is that 640mb memory too little? Or is there some way to get more memory in iBook, even if they say in apple-site that 640 is maximum? And is there difference in speed between iMac (1Ghz, 512mb or 1Gb memory) and iBook (933Mhz, 640mb memory)? And how big is the difference between iBook 800MHz and iBook 933Mhz? If I buy an iBook, should I buy 800Mhz or 933Mhz version? I really don't have too much money.

This post has been edited by petronome: Thu 1 Jan 2004, 11:54

[dixiechicken]

Petronome!

Comparing PC:s to Macs are a pretty tricky thing to do.
Due to the differences in the hardware and software.

My iMac G4-800MHz, with Panther OS-X 10.3.2, 1Gb ram & 120 GB Maxtor 7200
(slower systembuss and no L3-cache)

Feels on par with my brandnew Compaq NX7000 notebook,
1500MHz Centrino, 512Mb ram & 60 GB 7200 rpm nonstandard disk.
(fast frontside bus)

Thats most of the time for ordinary applications. (Ms office and the like)

While my iMac chugs along steadily without any great variations in speed & behaviour
my Compaq notebook shows great variations at times for no obvious reasons.

Thats mostly due I suspect to the piss-poor implementation of multitasking in WinXP-prof.
( all off a sudden opening the Controlpanel can take a minute )

The big advantage to Max OS-X is stability, security, almost no viruses,
( on my iMac at home I dont even use any anti-virus software at present - generally a very bad practise -
try that on a win xp pc and se what happens ) multitasking and memorymangement.

However the OS-X is a pretty resource hungry os, the more memory the better. Can you install/afford at least 1GB ram?
Do it!

Get the fastest Mac you can afford.
( although Panther is much faster than earlier OS X versions -- speed is not a very strong point either ).
( in comparison with other *nix systems )

One more thing to bear in mind: generally speaking due to the vertical integration in a Mac ( Apple designs both the hardware & the os & other software ) you will experience "very little hassle" installing software and hardware. True plug & play was a fact on the Mac long before (years) - Mr gates coined the phrase.

At one time I spent 14 days trying to install/connect an UMAX 630 SCSI-scanner to an PC Win NT-4 w. sp3.
( getting correct scsi-card drivers, gathering info on how to do it )
Doing the same on my old Mac PPC 6100 took me 15 minutes. Using inbuilt sccsi-port and the UMAX drivers written for
NOT the PPC-processor but the older 68K (68030/40) cpu:s.

Cheers: Good luck and welcome to Mac-Heaven
Dixiechicken

Thanks Dixie!

I guess I go to iMac. That's the most powerful machine I can afford. The 1Ghz model. Probably I can get 1Gb memory, at least I think so. Or, maybe I check the PowerMac G4, because, without monitor it would cost something like 1600€ (~2000 US$). iMac would cost about 1500-1600€, so there's not so big difference. Of course, I would have to buy a monitor with the PowerMac. So, do 'normal' (PC-) monitors work with (Power)Mac? And do I need some kind of plug to get the PC-monitor plugged?

Now I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a mac, my PC really annoys me... But, I won't have the money until summer (2004), so I have to wait about ½ a year. Do you think there will be some new models then? Or will those iMacs and PowerMacs (G4) be 'old rubbish' then? ARGHHH!! I WANT MY MAC NOW!!! Can't stand this PC!

[dixiechicken]

Yes ordinary PC-monitors usually work just fine with a Mac:s these days.
You may need an adapter on some models.

At work I have an old G4-400MHz ( with a ATI Radeon 8500 in the agp-slot )

My monitor is a LG L1811s 18" flat TFT-display. The standard VGA-cable fits right in, no adapter needed in my case, as an example.

Cheers Dixiechicken

[Fields]

"At work I have an old G4-400MHz"

so sad to see this in writing, I still have my "old G4" powerbook, been saving up though for something like an ibook but with a the 7200rpm hardrive and maxed-out ram. I'll also have to get an external drive...

oh I miss the days when everyone was so amazed with the g4pb's.....I still love mine though,....sniff....sniff....

-Fields

[boze]

petronome-
i don't think the decision to get an iMac over an iBook is as clearcut as Metro suggests.

it's embarrassing that folks would be saying, 'you'll want to go with OSX'- embarrassing to apple i mean. do you know that OSX has been out for three years now?! it makes me want to scream thinking that there are old school ppl on this board who think it's even an option to expect a new computer buyer to use an os that was replaced three years ago- and lets not mince words, i know it hasn't been ready all this time but that's just _another aggravation that mac ppl are all to ready to play down imo.

about your specific situation: you may as well disregard everything in this thread if you're not buying for 1/2 a year. right now i think the G4 iBooks are probably the best value in the mac computer line, but that could change.

did somebody actually use installation of a scsi card as evidence that macs were easier to configure? i think that's insane. first of all, neither of the machines petronome is considering even have pci slots and secondly i'd be willing to bet that the likelihood of any new mac or pc person using scsi for audio is about nil. to suggest that macs have an advantage in plug-and-play is pure conjecture and mostly i think it's just folks parroting apples marketing campaign from four years ago. for every story about plugging something in on a pc that causes trouble there are other stories about mac peripheral problems. anybody with a usb printer who used osx in it's first two years knows this. i've plugged apple mice and kbds into my vaio laptop and had them pop up little 'installed and ready to use' windows in xp without doing anything. i still don't have stable drivers for my logitech mouse in panther and my canon photoprinter isn't showing up again after moving from 10.3.1 to 10.3.2. and lets not forget that there are many many more hw and sw offerings available for windows, so it's only natural that more of them will have problems even if it's only the same percentage. and you could easily argue that the hassles with installing peripherals is offset by the fact that mac peripherals all cost more as well.

finally, it must be said that apple computers other than the dual processor G5 desktops are slower than their pc counterparts- meaning that whatever price you're looking at you can get a faster computer that is of comparable build quality in the pc world. for a laptop i'd suggest a Toshiba Satelite notebook as the computer to compare, and for the iMac i'd suggest looking at the world of shuttle PCs with an LCD monitor. admittedly, OSX is a nicer os in a lot of ways than XP Pro, but at least some of this advantage is offset by the fact that the G4 is a slow, under-powered processor by modern standards. you can get a 15" 2.4ghz Pentium 4 M for the cost of an 800mhz 12" ibook G4. folks here love macs, but they're going to have to talk about something other than performance (number of audio tracks, number of plugins, number of virtual instruments, number of software products even..) to tell you that the iBook is a better value, because a toshiba laptop like the one i describe will beat the pants off that iBook at _everything.

oh, and one more thing- that idea that a laptop hd can't run osx or do enough tracks of audio is kinda specious as well. it's the processor that's the bottleneck with the G4 comps, you can still playback maybe 16 tracks of audio on a laptop hd and the incredible values available in fw/usb2 discs make this even a weaker point. certainly not reason alone to choose an iMac. if they were both G5s all this would be different, but that's not the case.. maybe in sixth months when petronome is ready to buy...

good luck p

This post has been edited by boze: Thu 8 Jan 2004, 16:19

Well, maybe I just buy new PC (mean Windows-machine) then... But I would like to have a bullet proof comp, which doesn't crash every moment and accepts new hardware and software. But, thanks for answers! Gotta check this mac-thing again, when I really have the money, and re-consider the computer.

[boze]

i'm not saying the iBook or even the iMac isn't a good idea. all i'm saying is that 1) the landscape will be very different in six months, and 2) macs are elegant machines but it's wrong to understand them as being top notch for performance and it's misleading to suggest that they don't have hw and sw compatibility problems of their own.

[dixiechicken]

I beg differ on some points about "boze-s" expose.

(I've been a systemsadmin at our dept for 11years now, reponsible for some 275 computers, mixed environment 75%pc:s 25% mac:s & and a handful of *nix boxes - I have a bachelors degree in both Electrical engineering and in Computer science)
I spend almost all my time (85%) keeping the the pc-s up and running. With the mac:s and the *nix boxes
it is largely "set it & forget it".
( the last 15% is keeping our PC-servers up and running )

I think it's meaningless to talk bout the diffrences in specs. It doesnt really tell you shit.

Nowdays it's pretty easy to compare a PC with a Mac.
Keep it simple and sit down in front of two different computers and time the daily chores you usually do.
Open a word document.
Surf the web to your usual sites.
Open a Photoshop file - apply some filters to it.
Copy som files & folders over network & to another drive.

The normal things you excpect to use your computer for.
If the differences seem disturbing to you, it's time to consider specs or hardware issues.

to suggest that macs have an advantage in plug-and-play is pure conjecture

It's not, it is the plain truth. My experience backs this up.

i've plugged apple mice and kbds into my vaio laptop and had them pop up little 'installed and ready to use'

My various diskett drives, zipdrives ms-mouse, PowerShot S-50, Logitech usb-keyboard and so on pops right up in Mac OS-X panther 10.3.2, no extra drivers needed.

and mostly i think it's just folks parroting apples marketing campaign from four years ago

I t really is'nt very polite to imply that mac-lovers are brainwashed and incapable of forming rational decisions, based on rewieved facts.

Lets not forget about security issues - hackers and viruses.
These problems are almost nonexistent on a Mac.
On my iMac at home I dont even have an antivirus program installed, dont need it. ( beware YMMV )
A default installed win xp pc at my work usually get attacked by viruses directly after an install of the OS, somtimes it takes as long as 15 minutes.

If you dont stay on top of updates and security-patches in win-xp & win2k, you're dead meat. On a mac you really neednt worry.

Do a portscan on default installed Mac OS-X & a default installed PC-WinXP/Win2k. Notice how the pc is wide open on a respectable number of ports & protocols. The first versions of win xp even tried to communicate with my refrigerator - for crying out loud.

At long last - although I wouldnt dream of bying a pc for my OWN money the widescreen Compaq NX7000 notebook, my job bought for me, is rather nice as such things go.

Cheers: Dixiechicken

Well, have to take another look at the computer-thing at summer, but mac is still an option. I actually don't need SO much power, now I have AMD Athlon XP1800+ w/256mb DDR 266Mhz, and one 40gb HD. I can make my music with that. But because of the crappy soundcard (audigy), lack of memory, lack of HD, I really don't love my computer. And also, it's very loud. So what do you think, how powerful is, let's say 1Ghz G4 (w/ ½ or 1 gb RAM) to my computer? If it's something like my current computer, I think the power is enough for me. I just want (enough) power, stability, and clean sound (which my current ammount of RAM and soundcard doesn't really offer).

[boze]

unless i'm misunderstanding the post, i think he's just buying one computer and not 275, dixie. how much time you spend keeping your office happy is almost completely irrelevant as are your degrees. no offense, but we're not talking about sysadmin stuff, we're talking about running a single computer in your home to do audio. what percentage of those 275 machines are macs? how many of the 275 comps are audio workstations? how much did they cost? how many vsti's can they run? that would be more on topic i think...

if specs don't tell you _anything (telling me about polite? try not to use obscenities on the board please- should i have to tell this to a moderator?) then you are arguing with the world and not me. a machine running a P4 at clock speeds over 2.4ghz is going to outperform an iMac or an iBook with a G4 under 1ghz for audio apps. try to keep in mind that the poster is asking about a single machine for use as an audio workstation.

frankly, your whole response is off topic. i'm telling petronome that there are more similiarities than differences with what kind of things you can do and what kind of experience you'll have buying a new computer because like many ppl he seems to have come to this board thinking an apple purchase is the only way to find success doing audio. folks think because macs are so popular that they are _better for doing audio, when the fairest thing to say is that they are different. i'm pointing out some of those differences and letting him know that the whole landscape will change by the time he's going to buy.

why not say something helpful to the pentronome instead of the same old boogyman talk about virus's and software updates that xp machines do automatically anyhow. or better still, why not show me some benchmarks of an 800mhz G4 outperforming a 2.4ghz P4 for audio tracks, plugins, vst instruments or something.

petronome: if you decide to get an xp machine again be sure to use the system updates that it alerts you about online as most of them are security patches and also install a basic antivirus program (these update themselves automatically as well).

[dixiechicken]

Boze!

No offense meant - none taken.
I quite agree with you that the similarities out-weighs the differences.

But at home everyone ( that owns a computer ) is forced to some degree to play the sysadmin for at least one computer. Unless of course he/she happens know some knowledgeable person like you, - he/she can persuade to to help out.
Time counts even at home.

In the end your computer is simply a tool to get a specific task done. You choose the one/s that suits your way of working, the ones you feel comfortable with.
I believe creativity and workflow to be all important, I hope your tools of choice helps you out in this respect.

Petronome:
if you decide to go the windows route, be sure to follow Boze:s advise on system updates and the antivirus program. Configure the antivirus program to do daily updates.

Cheers: Dixiechicken

[boze]

amen to that-
i seem to catch a lot of heat at this board for ever comparing mac and pc hardware offerings, but i thought it was important to bring it up in this instance.

i feel like folks who have used windows and are about to get their first mac generally feel like it's going to fix things for them and let them do what they want to do creatively. while i think this image that mac has earned for itself with savvy development over the years does make it look like apple is _the place to be for audio/video, i think it's worth stating sometimes that it just isn't true. i just saw a great music video composed by a really down to earth friend and he did the whole thing on a dell laptop with all pc sw and little avi's from his digital camera. when ppl act like 'creative people find the mac to be better for that sort of thing' and i just have to let folks know that a 2.5ghz P4 or something like that is a real asset for doing audio and video.

this whole thing will be easier to manage when the G5s are a bit cheaper and available in laptops and desktops and iMacs. if G5s were around to compete with the average Toshiba $1300 laptop then the only complaint I'd have left is the goofy OSX finder.

--- this next part is off topic, just a bit of background info on my mac/pc experiences...

my mother and stepfather tried and failed to switch this past year. they got a G4 iMac and little idiosyncracies in OSX just kept screwing them up. try to maximize a window for example- doesn't work, you just have to get used to overlapping windows that don't go full screen without help and learn to use expose.

my mom was mousing down the bottom of the screen and the dock pops up and by accident she drags something off it and it disappears in a puff of smoke. apple used to be the computer for ppl who aren't computer people and that's so not true anymore... you should have seen her. she'd try to resize a window and it was quite an awakenging for me-- i was like, 'um.. you have to drag it by the bottom right corner.... um no, they don't really go fullscreen.. um.. yeah that's Column View.. no, it always jumps sideways like that... no the dock can't have it's own part of the screen sorry. well, no you can't just save as that file there just by clicking on it.. you have to type the name in again. yeah, i don't know why they didn't think of that....'

i really don't think these things are just a question of relearning something, i think they are examples of bad UI design and i think many mac ppl are unwilling to say stuff like that. worse, there's usually an appologist around to post after me about how the OSX finder is the best finder ever and it's just a little different in some ways but he's way more productive blah blah blah.

anyway- sorry for the OT.

thaks for staying coolheaded dixie, i appreciate it.

[dmrkh]

There's a line in "A Course In Miracles" that reads "You can be right, or you can be happy." Dixie, you ARE cool.

[boze]

he's not that cool really- you're just catching him at a finer moment +)

[dmrkh]