Hey everybody. I just recently switched from a PC to my wonderful new PowerMac duel 1.25GHz G4. While on PC I used Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 and Sonar for all my recording/sequencing. Now that I'm on a mac, what should I look into? I seem to have noticed that the big players are Protools 6, MOTU Digital Performer, and Cubase. Any others I should look into? Thanks in advance.

Hey kyle, i'm new to this myself (recent purchase of a mac & geared toward software apps). Apple supports both pro tools audio recording software as well as logic (primarily for midi use).

Welcome!

Now on the sequencers:

If you need some midi, but want an easy and fast (and goooood) audio editing it's Protools (we still don't know when PT free 6 for X will be available). Save PT free, the Protools environement is almost closed and as the X update is only here since this month, wome things are still missing

Professional MIDI (the know it all) and good audio: Logic. You must know that Apple bought Emagic the editor last summer.

Overall good, more easy to grasp than Logic: DP, announced, should be here well… we still don't know, but it seems to be not a long time from now.

These 3 are the pro choice, but you can use Cubase SX it is looked as less pro, but some users are very happy with it.

If you're used to cakewalk, the Mac version under X is called Metro, but seems to be buggy.

Also remember that a lot of plugins are still waiting their X version. And you can try alternative sequencers like Numerology too if you want (analogue style sequencing) as long as others…

Sounds great! Thanks for all the suggestions. At this point I think I'm going to go with ProTools 6, but what about hardware? I used an aardvark direct pro 24/96 on my PC, but alas, it is incompatible with OS X and OS 9 (which i can't even boot into) is still only a beta driver. In the 350-400 dollar range, what Interface/Soundcard should I get? I need 24bit 96khz quality on the audio and atleast some MIDI interface. If there isn't a midi interface, without going over the 400 $ price limit, what midi timepiece would you recommend?

lepetitmartien,
I'm curious, what leads you to think that Metro is buggy?


I believe most of what Metro and Cakewalk had in common was distribution. I'd classify Metro as good for the money - especially if upgrading. There is a no-save/quit after 25 minutes demo available at www.sagantech.biz so you can check it out.

On the plus side it gives plenty of audio tracks for the hardware, good sequencing, supports OS9 and X (quicker than most others did), supports many standards, has passable notation, very fast technical support, frequent updates, some extra features like MP3 jukebox and working w/ movies. Also, doesn't take up 200MB or so on your hard drive (though I know a lot of folks who don't consider a product decent unless it it does take up a lot of space so this could be a minus

On the minus side no printed manual, some say the interface is quirky, the interface isn't as sexy as logic/DP/PT (man Logic and DP are, indeed, great looking interfaces!), no plug-ins included, no surround, controller interface requires much configuration.

I don't have any in-depth/recent experience with DP/PT/Logic so consider that as you read my post. On the other hand, I can make music with Metro and not feel stifled. I could see a huge advantage to PT if you are delivering your music to others in project form.

Hope it helps,
Gary

One thing to note about Pro Tools 6, is that you cannot use it with any third party soundcards. It only works with Digidesign Hardware. In the case where you purchase either an MBox, which I use myself with fabulous results, a Digi001, Toolbox or Digi002, you get ProTools LE 6 included, which is quite powerfull and not that limited as the "LE" tag might suggest. If you purchase ProTools6 the full blown version, it will cost a large sum of money to get all the necessary hardware. It is worth getting a quote from an authorised dealer before making a move.

Ahem, LPM, I don't know if I'd call Cubase SX "less pro". It already has certain features that Logic seem to have "borrowed" for the 6 update.

Plus SX is VST compatible, which opens you up to a whole world of plug-ins that Logic simply can't use (BTW Kyle, Pro Tools plugs are often VERY expensive - disproportionately so).

Logic is very good: SX is very good. Personally, I prefer the interface of SX - it's been much easier to get into with and I'm working quicker than I ever was with Logic. I know I'm in the minority here, but it suits me.

I still like Logic, particularly the vintage synth collection (EVB3, EVD6, EVP88), but having the option to go VST and use plugs like the PSP mastering collection with SX is very welcome.

As for Digital Performer, well they seem to have a terrible record on updates...

My two cents, anyway.

That's a different question, please make another thread

Look closely on this thread (but you know it already) there are some issues, I don't say it's bad, unusable etc. only that it must be ironed out to be ok. I've been a bit quick on this last night.

Certainly it's a bargain, but it seems to need a bit of extra work.

I don't think a lot of users will be really annoyed by that

PT and Logic are definetly (for the time being) the project form of choice.
It doesn't mean that everyone has to be on PT and Logic, the world would be a boring place

They all borrow from each other. All the major midi sequencers try to match PT on the audio side, and PT is gaining in midi.
Some are better at this game than others.

You are damn right
I'm on DP, no VST but you can live with it. Almost no free plug-ins, but they are good.

Logic is well known for it unlogic behaviour and its deepness in midi stuff. It can't be beaten on midi (I'm still waiting on synch reports upon SX, is it as bad as pre SX cubase or better).
Cubase has still an awfull record of bugs and quickinesses to make forget. there's a lot of new things in SX, I hope the better. But it's not viewed as pro. But the ease of use of the midi part is a good thing.
On the Audio side, Nuendo is definetly in the pro league and worth a look.

That side of MOTU is their weakness, but if you wait a little all gets in order. MOTU users have the habit, and you have a good sequencer, pro level , deep enough but not encyclopedic on MIDI, and good audio.

Have a look on Five12 Numerology, it's just out of beta, and trys to be original (analogue sequencer style)

Now some of the contenders are just available in X (PT) or still on the waiting list (DP)

sigh!

I think that if you can, you should really have a taste of the contenders before to decide. If you're a bedroom user, some interest of the pros won't appeal to you, but ease of use will be the main thing. And each seq has its strongholds.

Exactly. If you're lucky enough to get to try as many as possible before buying so you can figure out which one you like best, that's the only way to do it. They all do more or less the same thing and each has its own little "specials".

It seems to be that the first thing you start with is what you carry on with. Saying that, I started using Logic last summer and now prefer SX. Never used Cubase before that, so SX is my first impressions of Steinberg's work and I like it a lot. I'll probably end up using both for different songs - more for the fun of it than any particular reason.

Some say Logic's internal FX are better than those in Cubase, mainly because they have to be, what with not supporting VST and all. Steinberg can rely on third-party developers specialising in reverbs, delays, soft synths etc to expand the Cubase experience. Logic pretty much have to do it all themselves. Good thing/bad thing? You get less choice, but what they do, they do very well.

I have absolutely no opinion of Digital Performer, apart from the fact that people who use it are generally passionate about it - and that's a good thing!

Once again, wonderful feedback. I have now removed ProTools from my shelf of options due to cost and the fact that it limits what hardware I can use. So now it's come down to either Cubase SX, Logic Audio, or Digital Performer. I wish there were more demos available for these apps, but I guess I'm just going to have to go for reviews and such. If any of you have links to good reviews or even a possible demo, please post them here, or even e-mail them to me. dreden@deskmod.com

Thanks again.

You'll can still use PT free when it'll be available for X (one day…) as there are workarounds and the sound quality is worth the effort in 9 (in X it seems the same from the first opinions). If you live near a big city (I don't know where your city is, I'm a bit far form the USA , it shouldn't be to much a hassle to find people to watch the things working.

For reviews, check the ones from SOS and Electronic Musician, SOS has runned a few article on the basics of logic environements and features monthly articles on each of the main contenders.

btw kyle, your website can't be accessed… (access denied)

Kyle, it really comes down to what you feel you're going to need.

I can live without VST, as everything I would want is coming out within the year for AU (reaktor, waves plugins, max-msp-pluggo, other NI software eventually). Some people can't. If you're new to the mac side of the fence, and have yet to invest in VSTs for the platform, I'd suggest trying logic 6 out. It's the newest, has many interesting new features (do a quick net search, or go to www.emagic.de) and is owned by apple, so the future is pretty secure.

Cubase is a great program, but I've heard horror stories about the support on the mac side (the dedication seems to be towards the PC community first, then mac). On all accounts, it's pretty buggy still, but this may be fixed shortly (or not, who knows). If you don't mind waiting for updates, and if it works without issues for you, SX might be the way to go. I'd hunt around Cubase.net to get a feel for how things are currently standing.

DP is a system I've hardly seen, let alone learned anything about..

Kyle: I don't know where you're based, but music mags in the UK often have demos of the big sequencers on their cover CDs. Can you find something like that locally? Or don't the company websites offer anything?

Just thought I'd add my two cents - I started out as a Deck user (4-5 years ago I guess). Very basic, but a totally painless introduction to computer based multitracking. If it had any sequencing capability, I didn't know it.

Later I bought a Digi001 which took care of the hardware/software compatibility issues and hand a pretty intuitive interface. Any other PT set-up was entirely not an option because of the huge leap in price. Not being an expert in midi, I still managed to get up and running without too many headaches. But plug-ins were SO expensive (and nearly all the most desireable ones were TDM only) and I couldn't figure out how to automate keyboard module parameters, etc.

Then last year, although a few articles I read mentioned at least one feature in DP that sounded very cool, the Audio Instruments (virtual synths - I love my ES2!) and a reputation for the deepest midi control - and the boatload of included plug-ins pushed me towards Logic.

Here's my evaluation of Logic (and there will be some seemingly irrelevant information included in the interest of full disclosure):
(My host machine is a Titanium Powerbook - 400Mhz)
Midi is unbelievably great. And I think it's safe to say that I've only scratched the surface of Logic's midi potential.
Audio is in no way inferior (to my ears) to PT. (And believe it or not, I'm using an $30.00 iMic as my Audio In until a reasonably priced firewire solution becomes available - if the FireStation was made for OSX I'd probably use that). I used an EZBus for a short time, but found that it was not appropriately named and returned it.
Automation is so wonderful that I don't how I could possibly overstate it.
Hardware Compatiblity has been my biggest concern with Logic, but that has as much to do with my being an OSX user as anything else. So I'm just taking my time and waiting until what I want is available.
Plug-In Availability is surprisingly not a big problem for me. The only thing I MUST have that I can't get are the wonderful GRM plugs as VST2 or AU.
CPU Overload has never been an issue (even on this - by comparison to yours - meager machine) unless I have more than 5 ES2's working SIMULTANEOUSLY in combination with a bunch of plug-ins. I have not yet overloaded the CPU with audio sources+plug-ins+a couple of virtual instruments only.

In conclusion, I think Logic is wonderful. And the features of Logic 6 look VERY useful.

Since this is my first post on the MacMusic forums, I'm sure I've broken several rules. My apologies in advance to the moderators.

p.s. If you don't already own it, go buy Reason 2. Trust me.

if you decide to go the Cubase route, I have the full version for osx that i'm looking to sell. It's complete with manuals, box and cd. If you're interested shoot me an email at liquidh2o@team5150.com

Hey Kyle, Steinberg has a demo version of Cubase SX on their site. Unfortunately I can't find one for DP or Logic though...

I have a 1.25GHz Dual Processort, I'm running Cubase SX, with OSX. I produce commercial dance tracks.

Cubase SX has been redesigned, the Audio handleing is much better than previous versions, if you want to produce dance music, then Cubase SX is the best.

lepetitmartien said Cubase is a little less pro, Im not sure which angle he is coming from, because in the dance music industry Cubase is as good as any!

Pro tools is too expensive, and personally not worth the cash, Cubase can do as much as Pro Tools as a total audio sequencer, if you want to do Audio Post for Movies then get Pro Tools. If you want to make quality dance tracks then get Cubase.

I side with hanik over SX, but I'd go further and say it's not just for dance music - I record guitars, bass, vocals and other live instruments, plus add soft synths and drums via Midi. I'm working quicker and easier than I ever was with Logic and the results sound every bit as good as any sequencer I've tried - from what I understand, SX uses the same audio engine as Nuendo (Steinberg's top-end software).

If anyone has a bad attitude about Cubase, it usually relates to an older version - either that or they're just reciting something they've heard other people say. SX can handle it all - audio or Midi, plus you can use all the VST instruments and FX available. Plenty more are in progress, too. As for bugs, every computer program has them. I've already read plenty of angry comments about Logic 6.

I think there's a definite snobbery about using Logic - it's not THAT great.

Try as many as you can and see what suits you. Just don't get hustled into using something just 'cos everyone else does.

hanikfashhou cubase has had midi timing problems for years (now if it is at last ended, it's GREAT now on Protols you can't make cheaper than PT free but unfortunately… well… still not on the map on X. PT LE is available only if you buy a Digidesign interface we don't know at the moment if you'll can use them with other softwares (like we can in 9 with ASIO drivers)

Now resistance is futile there is no demos of either Logic or (when it'll come to X at last) DP (if MOTU do as usual).

There is METRO (users here can talk about it), Numerology (brand new thing, special, dirt cheap), Nuendo (ooch price but cool)…

Rickenbacker, unfortunately I havent used SX for recording live instruments my music is pure electronic, my vocals however are obviously audio, and I can produce industry quality results, expecially with the old VST plug-ins.

I do think nowadays it is getting very hard to choose which programme to use, to me its as if Pro Tools isnt as impressive as it used to be as many new programmes can handle Audio as good, SX uses the same audio engine as Nuendo whic makes it a viable entry for anyone who wants to create professional audio.

It all comes down to money! In an ideal world, I would like t have a fully integrated Pro Tools studio, but I can honestly say I am producing tracks that are of similar standard at the fraction of the price.

I am a Cubase man now, the latest update has aolved all problems with SX, it runs like a dream.

Good luck Kyle, I hope you get it right for yourself.

Kyle,
Can I just add that the oft aired Logic is way too complicated quote is bollocks imo.
I read the manual and joined several Logic lists and my world of recording possibilities keeps on growing.
Don't be fooled by the lack of VST support in X too. The AU versions of most plugs seem to be coming. Logic in X is rock solid.
Some people seem only to be moaning because the free upgrade to AU being offered by most developers to registered users is strangely not available to them .....
My 0.02 Euros.
Paul.