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Francois Dchery
With the new Jaguar (OS 10.2) , and the coming major music apps, how do you feel about it?
Levon River
QUOTE (webmaster @ Oct 6 2002, 11:59)
With the new Jaguar (OS 10.2) , and the coming major music apps, how do you feel about it?

I feel just like I did when the major music apps were still coming under OS 10.1.x. They are still coming.

Until somebody shows me something Logic can do that DP can't do as well (and nobody has yet), I will not pay the premium for Logic. Beyond that, Logic under OS X still has a whole list of important things "coming," so it's not even a fully working package yet as far as I'm concerned. (I also vowed back in the '80s that I would never, ever, under any circumstances support any software that required a hardware dongle--which are like cabinet locks in a daycare--and I have no plans for ever breaking that vow, but that's a separate issue.) So I certainly am not moving full music production over to X in Logic at this point

Until there is a fully functioning DAW+MIDI package for OS X, I'll be in the using OS X "for everything else" category. Serious music production just is not an option for me without a complete, intact work flow that doesn't require bouncing in and out of operating systems. It's too schizophrenic. blink.gif

It's always been bad enough having to bounce in and out of various programs, or going through what it's always been necessary to go through to get several disparate proprietary packages to work in sync, since we are this many decades into the use of computers, and *nobody* has ever actually produced a complete solution. That's exactly why we have to have "fixes" like OMS, FreeMIDI, ASIO, VST wrappers, ReWire--the host of "cures" that are sometimes almost as bad as the disease. We have the promise that Core Audio and Core MIDI and Audio Units are supposed to make life oh-so-much easier, but apparently even those are going to be no panacea, and so ASIO and ReWire are both still going to be required, both depending utterly on the whimsical cooperation of independent developers to implement them at all, and, if so, to implement them correctly and effectively. To the degree they don't, we'll continue to shell out money for needed apps that won't talk to each other, or, when they try, stutter. unsure.gif

I do believe (hope springs eternal) that somewhere not too far up the road there will be a choice of working, effective DAW+MIDI programs in OS X, and that things actually will be better than they were in OS 9. But right now it ain't. So I'm in the "for everything else" category.

P.S. I inadvertently hit the wrong button on the poll, and got myself a nice, shiny, useless "null vote" entered, apparently, that I cannot shed, change, orphan, abandon, or disclaim. If anybody knows how I can change it, please let me know. Otherwise, please mentally tote up one more "for everything else" vote. huh.gif smile.gif
Doug Miner
I have been using Jaguar with Deck and Intuem for several months and have had generally very good results. I have produced plenty of remix stuff and voice overs and am working on a recording project with a 9 piece group using 24 tracks that is coming along just fine. The stability is better than OS9 and the use of core audio and MIDI makes older interfaces (Free MIDI, OMS, Sound Manager, ASIO, etc...) obsolete. I will soon be switching to either Logic or ProTools (any input on that decision greatfully accepted), both of which have OSX compatibility now. I am doing this because of the need for 24 bit audio (which DECK does not support) is apparent even on the casual user level. Yes, I think OSX is ready for primetime as far as music apps are concerned. rolleyes.gif
Right now, Jaguar with the TASCAM US-428 is unusable for audio input. Someone, somewhere has messed up on the USB audio input with Jaguar, and no-one at Apple seems to want to even admit that such a problem exists. I can use Reason successfully (some people don't seem to be able to do this, though) and I can play back OK. But recording produces stutters and dirt after 2.5 minutes. This did *not* happen with 10.1.x.

Come on, Apple, you're losing credibility (and customers!).
I'm using Ableton Live and Spark XL (still missing sampler support under osx :/ ) running Jaguar right now. I can't switch to any serious work with Logic under X as long as I don't have better drivers for my Multiface - plus, as long as there's no Max/Msp for OSX I can't switch once and for all anyways.
I just purchased one of those 1.25 gHz dual/proc g4s and I am amazed and dissapointed with apple:

i understand that Apple had no desire to get 3rd party developers rolling until core audio and core midi were implemented (as far as they are currently implemented...)... there would be no sense in having 3rd party developers write code for osX carbon/cocoa ports and then come out with coreaudio and coremidi 3 years later ("sorry we made you rewrite the code for all your apps/hardware drivers, but looks like you are going to have to do it again now that we have our s**t together"). so currently i am booting in to osX for "everything else" like many others seem to be doing...

here is the problem: i just started making music on a macintosh so i dont have much commercial software for os9 either. some freeware stuff, sure, but nothing which i purchased a mac to use (i.e. max/msp and dp). and i have no intention of shelling out for the os9 versions of either of those programs when osX versions of both have been promised by the end of the year. so really i am stuck completely unable to make music on the nice and shiny g4 i just emptied my pockets for.

here is the second problem: there have been many complaints about the loud fans on the new ddr g4s... when i am booted in to osX i never hear the fan. not once. but when i boot into os9 the damn thing turns on and shuts off every 10 seconds. what in the world?! Often it won't come on in os9, but when it does it just does not shut up.

i wish i could use osX, it is a peachy os, and my midikeyboard and such seem easily recognized by coremidi... too bad there is no software which i could test it with yet (please do not mention logic, i dont want to spend that money yet/ever).
[FONT=Impact][SIZE=7][COLOR=blue]I have 10.2, A M-Audio USB Duo, A MIDIMan Keystation 61 on a B/W G3 400 Mhz w/ 512MB RAM, I am awaiting Cubase SX. I have been a Cubase user for quite a while am very excited about the possibility of removing OS9. I just want something that functions correctly with OSX
The sad fact of the matter for anyone using MOTU audio hardware, is that it looks like we're going to be in 2003 before any drivers are released. So far they have managed to write only a half working beta for the 828, so despite the fact the Logic & Cubase SX are now shipping, we are all still stuck using OS9.
The biggest issue for me concerning the transition to osX is plug-ins. Assuming MOTU updates DP3 anytime soon, I don't know if my current MAS plug-ins will work in osX. I'm guessing no, unless MOTU comes up with a way to run os9 plug-ins within a shell of some sort. I'm not sure how this is handled in Protools 6, if at all. I hope both programs will support Audio Units. If it is indeed a fully capable plug-in format, then it would be nice to see all osX apps taking advantage of it. That's probably wishful thinking, though. I wouldn't expect Digidesign to support anything non-proprietary.
I's sticking with 9 untill hell freezes over, or my iMac burns to the ground. wink.gif I'm really sick and tired of the big OS race. If it aint broke, don't fix it! angry.gif
I love the stability of X. I can easily go a month without restarting. In 9 I crash almost daily. 9 is far faster than X however. It's a smaller interface and I don't need X's fancy looks and unix shell hiding underneath using up more of my aged (500mhz G3) processor which is still plenty speedy under 9. Maybe I'm just behind the times, but X still seems too sluggish (I haven't tried Jaguar yet). That and the lack of DP.

I'm a newbie to this mb. I just had to jump in when i read this posting because the whole OSX thing has been weighing on my mind for quite some time.
Straight up & right out.. I DON'T like it!
OS X just doesn't impress me at all. Perhaps it's because I just don't get it or maybe its because I'm a bit prehistoric. It's confusing to me, the lay out doesn't make any sense, the folder organization is a hassle, & the desktop is sloppy.
Everytime Apple releases another update to their OS.., I get a little nervous because I have always been & always will be an OPCODE (pre-gibson) enthusiest! Not only do I feel that the OS's are evolving into complication but I also feel the same way about MIDI music software.
I'm sure apple computers had their reasons for whatever.
User friendly...? That promise died after 9.0.
If you like OSX then get Jaguar, i chave 2 cinema's and an play a DVD while running a logic audio session and also a qt movie with out a drop frame at all, even capture video at the same time with my i-bot fw cam.

But again the cons are if you work in the real audio envirement logic Audio itself is VERY LIMIMTED to the plug ins that ran in OS9, infact exted off keeping up wit the Jone's via samplers (KONTAKT) by releasing there esx32/64 , they decided to release a new 'audio units" scheme that will slow customers down to apple's marketing pace.
For music, it's OS9 for the foreseeable future...

With 2 G4's, one running Digi TDM, the other running MOTU 2408 both under Logic 5.3, and the entire kitchen sink's worth of audio apps/plugs/virtual instruments, I see no real reason to switch. It would be like taking this list:

Native Instruments
Bags of VST plugs/instruments
UAD-1 + powered plug-ins
Ohmforce VST plugs (absolutely the dog's)
ASIO drivers for my MOTU 2408 (yeah come on MOTU - OSX drivers please!!)
DAE drivers for my ProFools
etc etc.

And throwing it all on the skip! What, my entire creative arsenal?!


Now why on earth would I want to go and do that? I may as well just shoot myself in the foot, and then shoot the other one...

However, I am quite excited about the future of audio on OSX, it will be the choice in future (good things come to those who bleat), but for me I believe Apple have built the best possible foundations for the future (UNIX based) but now they have to complete the building and get the tenants moved in and then furnish throughout...

I've been using Logic 5 under OS X for several months.

I didn't mind giving up the old VST plug-ins, because the new features of Logic 5 give me plenty to play with. The new synths, and effects are fantastic.

I'm using a dual 450 G4 with a MOTU 828. Most of the music I make these days is done with Audio Insturments. I love the ES1, ES2, EXS24, and even the EVB3. I sometimes use external keyboards, guitars, mandolins and vocals.

I don't miss OS 9 at all. I certainly don't mis ASIO, which I mostly associate with nasty dialouge boxes. In fact, I find OS 9 awkward to use now that I'm accustomed to X. I've learned all the new key commands, and now X is second nature.

The stability is excellent. And the multitasking is great. I can burn CD's, write music, and run a server from my G4 simultaneously.

I'm sure that as more Audio Units become available, more people will be adopting OS X. It really is much better.
OS X rules! Anyone NOT using it is missing out on so much! I could never go back to OS 9!
QUOTE (webmaster @ Oct 6 2002, 11:59)
With the new Jaguar (OS 10.2) , and the coming major music apps, how do you feel about it?

I'm sure it's a great new system - I do have both 9.2 and OSX on one of my ten mac computers.
I will eventually and gradually change over to X since so many manufacturers seem to have suddenly
gotten their act together and produced X versions of their software. Good stuff Mac Team !
Since I have now my update to Logic 5 and Audiowerk driver for core audio are available I do now all my stuff under OSX 10.2. I love the stability of OSX. Month before I was switching back to OS9 just for making music and mostly it was just a pain because under OSX you can work different, better in my opinion. I learned to love OSX and to hate OS9.
BTW, I don't use much softsynths etc, I prefere hardwaresynths and sampler...
Doug Miner
The stability of OSX makes it my choice. It is rock solid - no problems ever, not one minor glitch. After years of suffering with the limitations of OS 9 and previous systems, I am dilighted. The only dissappointment is that E-Magic has not offered to compensate those of us who have thousands of dollars invested in plug-ins that are now useless. The best third party plug-ins are simply not available and many companies have released recent revisions which do not support audio objects and apparently will not for some time. Perhaps E-Magic could develop a shell that would allow us to use Dsp plug-ins.
My OS 9 has gone R.I.P. for months. I am making music with Ableton Live and Propellerheads Reason right now and trying to learn Cubase SX which I just got. So far all of those softwares have been great and I have *not* found any reason to go back to OS 9 even though I love DP3. Core Audio/MIDI have been hassle free unlike OMS and ASIO back in the days.

Of course I can totally see that many people who invested in a OS 9 centric environment just can't leave OS 9 and there's a good reason for that. After all, why switch if your tool works!? At this point (especially after ProTools 6 is out and DPX is due out within a couple of months) whether to pick OS 9 or OS X is up to the users. I am guessing when all of ProTools, Cubase, and Digital Performer reach the next major release, there will be enough reason for most of the OS 9 users to switch over to OS X.

What do you guys think?
I'm a little frustrated, because I LOVE OS 10.2 - but I simply can't migrate yet because I'm running a 2408mkII. Not to mention a whole slew of softsynths in Logic Platinum 5.5 as well as my UAD-1 card.

I've tried emailing MOTU, but to no avail. I find it hard to believe that the demand for OS X drivers for the 2408 (the absolute biggest-selling unit they've ever had) has not inspired them to at LEAST make some sort of press release that says "We know, We know - we're working on it!" to appease the masses - but instead we get nothing. I don't feel I should have to go out and buy an 828 when my 2408mkII isn't even 2 years old.

Has anybody here heard anything from them?

Also - is there any other pro-level OS X-ready Audio interfaces out there besides the M-Audio stuff and the Emagic stuff?


joey b
the echoing green
Joey b - Edirol have some nice OS X-ready audio interfaces.

As for OS X, I love it and tend to use it for everything. Occasionally, I have to launch Classic apps (Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Quark etc), but I never actually have to boot into OS 9.

Music-wise, I'm running Reason, Live, Cubase SX, Logic Platinum 5.5, Melodyne, Storm, Sound Studio, BIAS Peak and a whole lot of other shareware apps - everything OS X-native. It's excellent.
angry.gif I am a bit trapped with my new powerbook gigaherz, it refuses to do a clean install of os 9...leading into a very unstable musicpartition under 9.22.
Osx is nice and has much better miditiming since 10.23, no question...the future of musicmaking on a mac is osx...but...
in the moment all applications i have for osx are so badly buggy that life hurts...i never had so many crashes....
the powerbook crashes under 9 because of the bad installation...and it crashes under osx because of applikation and driver buggs.
if anybody knows a trick to force a new powerbook to accept an os 9 installer...please let me know...
I just bought an new 867 DP for e1479 and am amazed with the quality and simplicity of OSX in general. I tried for some time to get a P4 Asus working stable with Logic, but on OS X everything just works fine right out of the box (until now, fingers crossed) without these crazy windows questions all the time (took me 4 hours to get the Logic XSkey working). I have to wait a bit for sum updates (Altiverb, Powercore), so for that it's hopping back to 9.

I'm really looking forward to good MPimplementation of Logic and having the cash to burn on the Vienna orchestral samples!

For me this platform has a lot of potential. Very stable, very easy to maintain, no 'OS-ego' that keeps popping up with silly remark like "Windows has noticed you have a mouse attached to your computer" and stuff. In general, that's what I dislike about computers, if the OS needs a lot of attention and pampering while you're trying to get some creative -kough- work done.
I'm running OS X on a 1gHz tiBook using Cubase SX and Reason 2.0 software. Hardware is a Roland PC-200 keyboard controller and a Yamaha WX5 wind controller, both running midi into a Roland SC-8850 sound module that pours the datstream through USB to a Griffin audio USB hub and then into the tiBook.

Miraculously, everything works even better than OS 9. I've had the tiBook since late December and have never even booted in OS 9. OS X is clean and trouble free. Wonderful, elegant interface that never bombs or freezes.

I guess if OS 9 does everything you want and is hassle-free -- stay with it. But you'll never know what you're missing. I upgraded Cubase and Reason to OS X at very reasonable cost that included major new improvements as well. The only important piece that I've given up is TC-Works Native Reverb VST plug-in to Cubase. TC-Works upgrade path is to Native Bundle, which includes four other plug-ins, but they want $199. Seems steep for the package to me. I'm waiting to see if TC-Works either brings the upgrade price down or see if I can get by without it.

All-in-all OS X has been wonderful experience
I have had warm and fuzzy feelings for Logic 5.5 combined with OSX since the day I got it, even with a slightly higher learning curve in regards to set-up (and of course I'm only speaking about my personal experience). While it's a bummer that the hardware key takes up a USB slot, to have all the EMagic VST instruments already in the Logic program code (thereby eliminating any possibility of problem) is more than worth the minor inconvenience.
angry.gif I can't even THINK of using OSX! The OSX drivers for my motu 828 are a joke (there's only restrictions!), and not to mention plugins... For the moment i have no choice, Os 9.2
QUOTE (webmaster @ Oct 6 2002, 11:59)
With the new Jaguar (OS 10.2) , and the coming major music apps, how do you feel about it?

I can only agree with senior member Levon River. MacOS X has great potential, but has limitations now that almost make it as bad as some Windows OS versions. I still use it for music production and editing (I don't do sequencing or synthing yet), but jump from good program to good program. Apple needs to do some homework to make Core MIDI, CoreAudio and Audio Units all their potential seems to indicate. This is no time for inferior-making compromises. Then MacOS X will be a devastating music machine.
I use a yamaha keyboard, a delta 44 card & box w Audio Buddy, an img 2010 Guitar, all plugged into a Quicksilver g4. I cried and cried when OSX and Cubase wouldnt work in classic - But with Cubase SX, I'm back in heaven - the program seem so far to work effortlessly - I'd say definitely smoother than OS 9.2, as I don't have to boot up my MIDIMAN panel, then OMS, then Cubase. I'm honestly glad to be rid off OMS - it felt like an endangered species anyways! I like the feel of OSX and SX, and the VST System Link is a killer boost for anyone who has a powerbook and a tower.

All I miss now are my favorite plug ins (I was SO GLAD to find North Pole here!!!) But I guess they will come back over time. It's good to re-invent myself from time to time, and start from scratch and rebuild from the ground up - I just don't appreciate Apple telling when I have to do it by releasing an Op System that isnt comaptible w my core app. I really have learned from all of this that Apple doesn't care about it's long term core users and any loyalty I had for them is gone, but they still make the best computer and operating system, it just could be so much better. my 2 cents worth. lol
Wow, I had no idea this site was so 9-biased(haha BIAS oops pun).. I probably should have been aware, realizing that a lot of equipment has yet to be updated (drivers, etc.) for X and that a lot of studios are most likely going to stick with 9 for a looong time.

My impression comes from the poll options:
Do you use MacOS X? For music, For the rest, I will install it later, I stay with OS 9, Never.

I use OS X (10.2.4) for EVERYTHING. I don't run Classic (as I have a 10.1 system on another partition, and another partition with OS 9 as the 10.1's Classic) and work more effectively and creatively than I ever did in any of the old Mac OS's..
btw I've been on Apple computers since before the Mac, and have worked with Macs and audio since Farralon came out with the MacRecorder (circa '89?).. working with some MOTU and Oxygen hardware, Reason mostly.

So yeah, make the switch. (to OS X)
Unless you would need to buy new hardware, or pay too much for some software upgrades. Then you should stick to 9, it's pretty solid.
Im an OS9 Logic user. Why? Cos for some whacky reason Logic works better in OS9!

For the time being anyway... biggrin.gif
Part of the problem with the appearent lack of seamless integration between apps and operating systems, the hassles we all have had with proprietary software fileformats, drivers extensions etc.

The very things Leon Rivers describes, can be traced back to the fundamental "theoretical model" for todays computers. This model was formulated in the 1930:s by Turing and von Neuman. In 70 years there has NOT been a single major theoretical breaktrough.

The result is that operating systems and other software in various degrees reflect this model and become very dependant upon the underlaying hardware.
(a.k.a I cant take my favourite daw for Mac and run it on a PC - if I should want )

There was a time say 10 - 15 years ago when it when it was a real hassle to even exchange wordfiles between PC:s and Mac:s. Programmers have been struggling for decades, trying to introduce various abstraction layers between software and the underlaying hardware, to get away from all this.

I could say a lot more on this subject but I think I'll let it be for the moment.
I do not mean to imply that there isnt lots af other factors who is contributing to the present day mess.
I do apologize, beforehand if I have slighted some computer scientists somewhere who is grappling with the present theretical model and trying to create a new computer paradigm.

As a sysadmin ( 10 years now ) for our deparment at Ume University, I would welcome a paradigm shift.

Cheers: Max!
I'm into "I use it for everything else"
since OSX and the carbonized audio apps are still too young for a secure use.
I'm planning to use OSX for audio as soon as protools 6 and MAX/MSP/JITTER/RADIAL will have a very stable verision.
I was lucky enough to buy a TiBook G4 1 GHZ in November and still can boot in OS9... it would be a disaster for me to have only Classic emulation at this time...
I love OSX, I'm pretty shure they'll make great things in such OS, not now, maybe next year...

Recording studios will likely migrate to OSX in 2 years..IMHO
Logic 6, Pro Tools 6 and Digital Performer4.
DP4/Motu at least has drivers for the various Motu interfaces.

I think Emagic has as well to Logic 6.

Cheers: Dixiechicken
First sentence of last post - should end:
"is out for Mac OS X"

Sorry about that: Dixiechicken
QUOTE (hughster @ Oct 7 2002, 02:36)
Right now, Jaguar with the TASCAM US-428 is unusable for audio input. Someone, somewhere has messed up on the USB audio input with Jaguar, and no-one at Apple seems to want to even admit that such a problem exists. I can use Reason successfully (some people don't seem to be able to do this, though) and I can play back OK. But recording produces stutters and dirt after 2.5 minutes. This did *not* happen with 10.1.x.

Come on, Apple, you're losing credibility (and customers!).

So the US-428 is the problem!

I thought it was Cubase, but this is far more probable!

It's terrible! I always get problems when I tried to record in OS X.

Mixing works wonderfully, though.
Doxxic, that's a very old post you're referring to (last October!). Tascam posted beta Jaguar drivers for the 428 in early March and a month later the 'official' 3.2.1 driver. I''m up and running with no problems, although a few people are still experiencing audio "fizzling out" - this seems to be related to dual processor machines. Either way, I would suggest a visit to Tascam's site to get the latest OSX driver.
OSX rules. for music or anything. I could never use OS 9 again
QUOTE (PowerMacG5 @ Sep 8 2003, 13:35)
OSX rules. for music or anything. I could never use OS 9 again

maybe so... but if you already have tons of $$$ wrapped up in OS9 apps... it can cost a small fortune to upgrade to OSX apps. I will be using OS 9 for at easy another year or two until I can afford new computer that will run OSX well with the new music apps too.

I got tired od trying to keep up with new gear and software as it was hard on my credit cards... now I just make do with what I have and will wait for a bit to make one big upgrade cool.gif
Ditto. I'd love to run exclusively on osX with dp4 and all those osX plugs, but that amounts to a couple thousand in software alone. Plus, most os9 audio apps are still more stable and perform better than their osX counterparts. My iBook 600 is slow enough in os9 already. I figure if I wait at least a year longer, I'll not only have saved up the moola I need to completely rebuild my virtual studio, but the software will be more mature as well.
The only thing i miss about os9 is the nostalgia it brings back - ahh the giddy days of OS7.1 and my 8100 biggrin.gif

OS X rocks - still a few gremlins - but overall very polished.

MacIDOL Mac Music Collective
I use Panther OSX 10.3.4 mostly for composing music,
But when it comes to photography I'll use OS9, Not because I want to
But because the software I use for digital photography is still light years behind OSX.

D cool.gif
I use OS X 10.3.4 for everything and I use OS 9 Classic within OS X
for a few apps
Metro for music
Thunderbird mail client
Shiira browser

eMac 700mz G4
Blue and White G3 500mz
Blueberry iBook 300mz
all running OS X 10.3.4
PB G3 333 - with OS 9.2 - sometimes angry, sometimes proud for beeing so modest...
Im using 10.3 Panther which owns
Im using OS 10.4 with Reason and Garage Band. I also have a Kawai full size midi keyboard connected to an Emagic MT4 USB midi interface. Generally the sofware works OK. The MT4 is a pain cause it always dropps out when you are working with high quality samples or you play heaps of keys at once or have two people on the keyboard. The only way to get it working again is to reboot. But then again I got it for free.
I've been wanting to upgrade from OS9 and SCSI, but the thought of replacing everything has stopped me so far.
A new computer, printer, scanner and software upgrades, then the thought of having to use the newest version of Cubase and wondering what to do with over 200 VST plug-ins I've already bought...
I just keep thinking what's the point. I'm not going to be able to do anything I"m already doing and it'll slow me down for a year while I learn how to use it.

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