I have some basic questions for any Pro Tools user.

First of all, I'm a songwriter in Nashville and I'm curious about upgrading to a protools setup.

1. Why choose a Mac instead of a PC?

2. Besides the Protools software, can someone list what all I need? I can't seem to find any complete information on what to buy. And some general price estimates would be great. I'm interested in the HD recording and not simply recording it to the computer's drive

I probably sound like an idiot, thats because im pretty new to this. Anyone that could help and be a reference or a guide would be greatly appreciated

Welcome aboard sailor ! Here we go:

'1. Why choose a Mac instead of a PC? '

PC are harder to set up, it's as simple as that... If you don't want to lose time looking for that *$%@#&!?°° .exe extension that's freezing up your whole comp., go for a Mac. Now, if you're already a confirmed PC user, stick with it.

'2. Besides the Protools software, can someone list what all I need?  I can't seem to find any complete information on what to buy.  And some general price estimates would be great. I'm interested in the HD recording and not simply recording it to the computer's drive'

You'll need Digidesign hardware unless you want to use Pro Tools Free which is limited in tracks count (8 max) and is not as well built as the 'real thing' (PTLE or PT TDM). If you wish to go with PTLE (light version), you'll have to buy the hardware: DIGI001 (around 1000$), MBox (not sure of the price, but less than a thousand for sure) or used Audiomedia III. If you've got big,big money, you can go for the TDM gear (now called HD); we're talking thousands $ here...
You're saying: ' I'm interested in the HD recording and not simply recording it to the computer's drive '...you'd better be !...Recording to the system drive is highly not recommended (fragmentation). You'll have to get one (or more) IDE or SCSI drives. I would personnaly recommend IDE (7200 rounds) which are way cheaper and work perfectly with PTLE.
If you intend to record accoustic instruments (guitar, voice...), you'll need at least one mic, maybe a preamp (if you can afford it; otherwise the 001 and the MBox have built in preamp that are said to be OK), and a mixer could also be usefull but not mandatory. You'll also need some cables (that can quickly add some bucks to the final bill!...).

'I probably sound like an idiot'

Sure you do !! But don't we all from time to time?... I certainly do !

For more technical infos on Pro Tools, go there: http://www.digidesign.com
For prices: check your local dealer (I'm french, so what the hell do I know about prices in the US?...) or US Websites.
Keep us posted if you need more infos ... I'm pretty sure you will (-;
See ya.

More info:

Pro Tools LE comes with the Digidesign's Digi001 interface or the Mbox. Check www.zzounds.com for very competitive prices.

The software is very reliable on a Mac. Most folks in Nashville run PT on Macs.

You'll need at least a G4 to run it effectively. The Digi001 requires a PCI slot, which means you'd have to buy a regular Mac. The Mbox is USB, and that will work with an iMac. But, I'd recommend at least a 19' monitor and that rules out the iMac in my humble. Yes, you'll need an additional 7200 rpm hard drive...the biggest you can afford. Also, beef up your RAM to at least 500 mB.

I recommend a $300 AKG or Audio-Technica condenser mic. Great for vocals or acoustic guitar.

But does the mbox have any latency problems when recording audio? I thought usb was the main cause of latency, but I'm using pro tools free and i'm going directly into the mic input on the back of my g4, and there is still some latency. It drives me nuts but i'm learning to cope. At least with my four track cassette i can overdub in real time.

Ahhh...latency... I'm glad I have a mixer to avoid it...
Meanwhile, are you aware that there is a feature in PT called 'Low latency monitor'?... It has some drawbacks (disable all plugs inserted on the recorded track, disable display of the track in the Master fader) but will surely reduce latency to almost nothing. Give it a try (it's in the Operation menu).

Low Latency Monitoring is not available to Pro Tools FREE users.

low latency= lowest buffer setting, simple as that. a g4 should be able to cope.
zero "audible" latency should not be hard to obtain on a g4.
is it really protools that you need?
digidesign don't give anything away unless you want to spend megabucks!
dp3, logic and cubase kick their butt in this price range...

"digidesign don't give anything away unless you want to spend megabucks!"

Funny... Aren't they the only one to provide a free version of the soft ?...
Haven't heard of "Free DP" or "Free Logic" lately...
Despite the fact that I'm a PT user, I've always been very critical about Digidesign and its general policy, but let's not get too subjective here...

To the others : Sorry guys about the Low latency Monitoring tip...since I'm awfully rich and my name is Jackson Clapton, I'm using PTLE not the Free version.

Well, if i had some cash i would move past the free software. Personally i think cubase has a much more clean and elegant interface, but i guess i'm stuck with the free stuff for the next few months.

PT Free does have a hardware buffer size thing. The latency is just a hair, but it sucks just the same. I was reading a review of the mbox. It says it has zero monitor latency. But what about latency of the recorded track itself? In PT Free i mute the track i'm recording, so i hear myself live thru my four track. Which is fine but i don't want to have to nudge or use the grabber or whatever once the track is recorded. Since it's such a tiny latency, it's hard to really tell when it's right.

If i bought a soundcard or an mbox or something down the road, will i have no latency in any form? What do i have to do to get absolutely no latency at all? Is this even possible?

Don't worry, the latency we're talking about is only a monitoring latency (while recording), once the track is recorded, there shouldn't be any "slidding" of the track/region.
The only "real" latency you can get on a track can be caused by the use of many plugs. To check that latency-> Apple+click on the volume/pan/... button of the track (you'll see the peak indicator, apple click again and you'll get a "dly" indicator for "delay").
But there again, there's nothing too worry too much about... For example a track with no plug shows "dly=0" and one of my track loaded with a 10 bands EQ and a limiter only shows "dly=4". 4 is for samples... and I can tell you this: a 4 samples delay is completely unnoticeable!

cool, so you mean that there's only latency on the recorded track if you're using ptfree, but not a regular version of pro tools?

No, I'm just saying that this latency is only a MONITORING latency; it doesn't affect the recorded material once it's recorded. The monitoring latency is due to the fact that if you record a guitar (for ex.), the guitar has got to go through an A/D conversion (to enter the comp.) and again through a D/A conversion (to monitor the sound through a mixer,speakers...). This takes time (latency) and gets even worse if you're using plugs on the recording track (the processor has more work to do in real time= more latency). Hope this is clearer...

Yeah, it makes sense, thanks. Monitor latency isn't such a big deal then. It might be the set up i have, a G4 450 processor, but i think there is minor latency on the recorded track itself. In the pro tools site i was told to record a track, then hold a microphone to my headphones while recording the second track. The second track is off just a bit, i'm using a nudge value of 30mms (?) on everything but the first track. That's a value i kind of guessed on, though. I'm learning to deal with it, but i would like it to be plug and play, the way it was on my 4-track. Now the MBox says it has no monitoring latency, which is great, but it doesn't say whether or not i would have the same problem of having to nudge the track just a little after it's recorded. Am i just being picky?

There is no such thing with PTLE (I'm surprised there is with PT Free). Anyway, once again, you should be able to determine the exact nudge value to apply by apple-clicking the Volume/pan...indicator (delay displayed in sample-> if you get "dly=5" for example, you'll just have to get in sample grid mode and apply a 5 samples nudge). But I'm really surprised you're getting a noticeable sliding... I'm not sure it's really due to the soft itself...

Thanks, i'm going to give that a try.

I am a humble songwriter and beginner on PT. I got an Mbox/Focusrite thingy. It's supposed to be the best concerning "no-latency". My ears haven't encountered the problem.

I use an ibook - the one with the small screen and I don't see what improvement a bigger one would bring unless it was 2 metres wide, but then it wouldn't be portable!

The audio I record with a Rode 2 mic is fantastic - didn't realise how noisy it was in the countryside where I live. Will be getting a DPA 4060 which is tiny and is not supposed to be affected by a little sweat if you strap it to your head. See www.dpamicrophones.com

With PT I can chop out or use much of the "unwanted" sound. I will be re-recording what I can in a well isolated studio up the road (not mine - it would cost 100,000$).

I'm surprised how erm good my songs are. It's like painting - your chef d'oeuvre jumps out and you wonder where it came from.

High quality, low cost (495$), negligeable latency, ease of use, and plenty of extra plugins available if you really need them (Autotune 3 costs more than the Mbox, so do some mics), and you don't have to bother with the Unix OS.

Go to www.digidesign.com and ask for the free DVDs. There isn't one specifically for Mbox/PT 5.2LE but they'll give you an idea. Actually, I don't think Digidesign knows how good it can be for composing with audio. I don't use MIDI but it seems good.

Can't understand why you don't want to use PT LE!! When you've produced your gems and you want a pro to tidy them up, you can can send them the files over the net and they can use them directly on their PT HD.


That'll do for now but if you want more just let me know. I wrote a reply before but as I went offline, when I finally clicked 'send' I wasn't logged in anymore and lost it.

Mac or PC, it will be the same... But the userbase (ie. support) is greater on the mac side. Also on Windows, you'll have to be more vigilant concerning disk formating (hfs versus fat32).



You'll need an audio card or an audio interface. If you want to use pro-tools with more than 8 tracks (like the free version), you'll need pro-tools LE (with m-box or audiomedia III hardware).
If you just want pro-tools and can afford it, go with a mix system, or even a HD system, if you want to record with a 192kHz sample rate :-)
You definitely need an external drive (scsi or fast firewire).
Expand your thoughts if you need more advices.
Bye.

hey cydonia, i'm also using pt free and the mic input on the G4- a 450 also! what kind of 4 track do you have? don't tell me it's a tascam porta02 mk2??

it's a yamaha mt50, though i've had a few tascams in my day.

Now i'm using cubasis. It doesn't have the latency problems of ptfree, and has more tracks. But ptfree has those automated mixer memories, which cubasis doesn't have. Which sux. I'm going to have to buy real package soon, i'm thinking of taking the plunge and getting mac OS X.2 and logic platinum, even though that's so beyond my learning curve i wouldn't even know where to start.

For those of you still curious about how latency works (specially on the 001, but that can also apply to any DAW), check this pretty good page created by one of the DUC's member, the honnorable CCash:
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ccash/latency.htm

cydonia, you already started!
none of us ever STOP learning about what we're doing with mac's and music!
you'll be happily surprised that this "hallowed" application can function as basically as the newbie stuff!
once you're on the ladder, it's just a matter of time and, of course, experience!
there's a famous quote that says "start the way you intend to continue".
as shalamar said:- "make that move, right now , baby".
platinum has "automated mixer memories", and so much more...

Well that's encouraging.
Glad to know it won't be as hard as i imagined.

(fights the urge to buy it right away)

nice quote!

Yeah, go on - give in to that urge!

I recently started working with Logic Platinum (in OS X) and it is pretty hard going at first, but the manuals (especially the recent v.5 addendums) are well written and even entertaining - I actually burst out laughing at one point. Read them and you'll make giant leaps.

Once you understand Logic's way of working, it all becomes clear and, well, logical. Plus you can always just treat it like a digital 4-track and just bang stuff down at first, moving on to using all the complex bells and whistles as you go. It's the best way to learn the program.

And it really is a terrific creative tool. Check out the new soft synths - the EVD6 and EVB3 (unlimited demos in v.5.3). Amazing.

Hey i was wondering, would the logic "big box" be a decent alternative to platinum 5 for OSX?

I really want to work in OSX, i wonder if there will be an update for the big box? The only reason i'm a little hesitant about platinum is its price, but i want full features at the same time. It's just me, doing techno songs with some vocals and occasional electric guitar. Is platinum more for studios than the average joe?

Or do i just hand over the cash?

PS-how about the new cubase for OSX? Would that be better?

Logic is the program I have chosen over all others. Damann converted me to it back in 1996 and I've never looked back. As a guitarist/songwriter/programmer, Logic has been the most stable program I have found. I used Cubase for 6 years before that on an Atari, and when I went to Cubase on the Mac, it was full of glitches (major sync problems, amongst others) but hey, that was 6 years ago. Logic has the best 3rd party driver support, some of the best virtual instruments, and along with VST support, just about every kind of sonic manipulation you can imagine is easily attained!

I recommend Platinum 5x. Though I dont run it on OSX yet, because I have too much to lose migrating from OS9 (tons of plugs, software, etc).

If you have to get Cubase, I recommend Nuendo (sounds better than Cubase SX, I've heard) but NOT on a Mac, unfortunately...on a...ugh..PC.

Oh yes, I almost forgot.

Buying Logic 5x is an investment that wont cost much in the future to upgrade. You only have to initially spend the money on buying it, but after that upgrades are generally free and simple to install on your mac (VERY unlike Dodgydesign NoTools/ProFools - you'll pay through your nose for virtually every single upgrade with them - they will 'rob' the money right out of your wallet at every possible turn of a software 'corner', and there is the 'red tape' when performing installations - sooo political) And then you'll visit your friends who dont use ProFools and realise that you made a big mistake, just like a lot of those PT folks out there who cant bear to admit it.

I strongly advise you to go for Logic! And hey, I'm not biased, I would even recommend Cubase SX, DP, or even Nuendo (but you own a proper computer, not a PC)

But dont make the ENORMOUS mistake of buying PT...load of old carp!

Teiwaz - Just a point: PT comes free with digi equipment, so you don't buy it.

I have an Mbox, and I wouldn't blame digi if I couldn't make it work with another app than PT (I once tried petrol for my diesel engine). Still, I am interested in the Emagic/Digi cooperation (see News).

I've no recent experience with other equipment + their appropriate apps, but I can say my PTLE and little digi box does what I want, and the cost was small compared to the rest of my set up.

You aren't credible when you say PT is crap. It's not crap and some great music is made using PT. Perhaps Logic does well the things you need, and PT does well things others need.

The instructions that come with the Mbox/PT are amateur, so I do grumble a bit. Well, not much - its so easy for what I need (for the moment).

Perhaps you're upset because they made you buy a floppy drive to read the plug-in authorisations.

Hi Presto. I dont allow digi to make me upset. The price of a floppy drive is nothing compared to what one ends up spending on the TDM/HD hardware. I'm sure you are quite happy with PTLE.



Also, it just so happens to be my personal opinion that the PT platform is "carp". I'm entitled to that opinion. I earnt myself that opinion by spending all my money on their stuff!! I have much experience with TDM, and VST2. It is simply dodgydesign's ruthlessness towards their customers that I find "carp". If the software was incredible, then maybe I would put up with their customer policies, but it isn't. It's a basic multitracking solution.

Sure, great music can be made on anything, including an ancient 8 track Brenell, for example. But that doesn't mean that one was spared from sticking their finger into the supply reel at the end of their take in order to rewind the tape by hand because the rewind motor had given up. In short, I'm not saying that anyone's music suffers because they use PT. It's just that you have less creative options for more money spent.



Around 6 months ago, I recieved a PT session from another studio. They had done the session in PT 5.1. I had PT 5.0. When I tried to open the song (I had a tight deadline in which to finish the project) I was dismayed to discover that PT 5.0 would not open a 5.1 song file.

Then, to my horror, I was forced into parting with $400 to upgrade to PT 5.1 just so I could OPEN the session. $400!! for a SOFT upgrade! Put another $200 on to that bill, and that's the price of a UAD-1 card! I was literally forced into going down the local music store to get 5.1 in order to begin my session! And what about some vast improvements? 5.1 surround? A handful of very minor improvements...



In stark contrast, Emagic only charged $150 for a huge upgrade path to Logic 5x, tons of new plugs, automation to the hilt, major score improvements, and you can see they worked hard on their authorization protocol...a clever little USB key that holds all registrations for virtual instruments...not a floppy disk in sight in the Logic 5x box, etc etc.

I'm also highly aware that PT comes free with digi equipment. That's how I got "hooked" by them in the first place. As for getting PT software for free with the hardware, I should hope so too, for the $$$!

But remember...you only get their software "free" the first time. Then you're in the $$$ loop.

Concerning your Mbox...have you seen the competition in the form of the Apogee Mini Me? Looks very enticing indeed...

I dont care for not looking credible in the eyes of PT users...what does that mean anyway?! I'M still a PT user (occasionally, only because certain areas of the 'industry' still insists on using it still, but people are beginning to realise that the horse & carriage is being replaced by the car...)



PS: Yes, my native county is in fact...Lancashire.

surely it's good that these forums can give readers an insight into the negatives of musicians tools as well as the positive stuff that we can get from any salesman.
teiwaz certainly isn't on his own with his opinion. i, and many others have voiced the same dissapointments with digi. how come digi users, unlike users of other products mentioned in these forums, get so upset when they read criticism?
what you construe as angry ranting from teiwaz is actually that famous aspect of the british sense of humour called "irony". the problem here is that it seems unique to us. i collapse laughing when i read this stuff, the only posts that anger me are the humourless, uptight personal attacks i've recieved when i've dared to have a laugh at digi's expense!!!
peace and freedom of speech to all...

I've already said more on this subject in reply to the same issue, posted by Teiwaz, in a few other forums.

In brief: distinguish between 'low-end' and 'high end' PT stuff. My PTLE/Mbox is not crap, and it cost me less than Auto-Tune (which I didn't buy). It's great for audio-recording and automation and so easy (for the mo).

Cf title "Beginners" - not usually interested in buying high-end stuff!

Don't worry Damann, Teiwaz and I seem to understand each other. Ow ista od lad?

Hey Guys I use PTHD, and really don't mind the criticism at all Digi are definitely into getting your hard earned cash but I do like their systems I just don't like the cash bit.


In reality what I want is their hardware then I can use something usefull with it like Logic (Who I hope keep to their previoius standards now Apple has em).

I guess it has been a rough year with PTHD and waiting for a zillion plug in and application updates only to have to shell out even more bread as OS X becomes practical ( Ithink it is going to be practical that is, at least I sure hope it is), maybe once I can fially use both my CPU's to their full capacity I will switch to something native as well.

Stuart

Hi Stuartpa. That's exactly how I felt when I bought their hardware...that I would use it with something flexible like Logic.

However, my feelings are that the only reason for owning a TDM/HD system is the boon of recording with 'zero' latency. I for one feel that this has been dodgy's only trump card to play of late.

However, the other platforms are now catching up in the 'zero' latency race, and once OSX is rich in audio apps/plugs, I feel that day may well be the day when dodgy loses a LOT of customers, unless their prices begin to reflect their products ie; fall. I'm already enjoying the fruits of VST2/Logic 5x after owning various TDM systems since 1996! (Check my posts elsewhere on this forum.)

Apparently, Apple expressed that they in no way want to change Emagic's modus operandi, despite the buyout. At the end of the day, it's going to be a good thing for Logic users that Apple own Emagic. I can see the R&D department at Emagic now...hopefully being visited/frequented by Apple's own code writers/technicians. What I'm implying is that future versions of Logic ought to be as stable as the elements of the Mac's own OS (- I'm not including OS9's chooser or file sharing here!!)



The "legacy" port on an HD system appears to be a good way to connect a "class" AD/DA converter, like an Apogee...why spend money on a 192? It looks like something Radio Shack would sell!



I visited Apogee's offices last summer, and one guy there was saying how through test comparisons, that the new 192 is 5 years behind anything in their AD/DA product line. I agree completely, in fact, I thought he was being incredibly modest...

If one has to buy into the bottomless financial bucket that is PTHD, don't bother with a 192...? Get a 2nd hand Apogee AD-8000SE, or a 2nd hand AD-8000. You can record at a maximum sample rate of 48khz, 24 bit with an AD-8000...but the QUALITY of the unit's converters and wordclock are unsurpassable. You will not believe your ears!! 888/24s get smoked by this converter, and 192's struggle to sound as good at 96khz. I personally don't believe that any 192 sounds as good as this "modest by comparison in price" AD-8000/AD-8000SE, even at 192khz. Don't believe the hype. ("SE" stands for "Special Edition" - these AD-8000's are slightly more pricey than a standard AD-8000, due to extra enhanced components in the A/D stage...)

Either Apogee, or the even lesser known PT compatible "Prism" converters...quite expensive though...but if you're into "spending"...

If you really want to record at 192khz with more than 8 channels, then you obviously have enough money to spend on a couple of Ferrari's as well, and don't mind going through hard drives like sweets on christmas day!



Not to mention the serious decline of available DSP horsepower at this rather silly sample rate...does one also own a 96 channel neve with $150,000 of outboard gear?



Bit depth means more to audio quality than sample rate...it's all hearsay. Ask anyone at Apogee R&D.

can i just add that originally, apogee used to provide the guts of digi's interfaces!
now, what could have possibly caused a fallout between these two?
i wonder...
oh yeah, and emagic are, as usual, helping digi to catch up, this time with the osx posse(that's everybody except digi). hum.
i know where i'd put MY money.
i'm just glad that i'm not a digi developement partner, i'd rather be a child minder...