Cubase Vs. Digital Performer., Vs. Options

[pdgood]

Let's get specific. DP does not have individual undo of quantizing. That's a big ommision. Say you record a drum part via midi, then you quantize the whole thing. Then suppose you play it back and it's OK everywhere except in one place in the middle of the song. You cannot undo the quantizing in that area without also undoing every other note after that point in the song. Even Cubase VST32 can unquantize a single note- even days later after you've made dozens of other edits. You can always return to the unquantized state. That's pretty cool. However, Steinberg who makes Cubase has the worst tech support of any product I've ever purchased. Whoever said that their forums were filled with angry users was right. That should way heavily in a vote, I would think.

Logic which has loyal followers is known to be hard to learn. It has been purchased by Apple who may simplify it, but they currently offer no crossgrade and upped the price to almost $1000. I'm also hearing from my dealer that Apple is not providing them with the training and info that Logic did in the past.

In my opinion, there is not a Mac sequencer currently available that is stable, has good tech support, is user friendly, and has the features I need. But you're probably someone like me that just loves sampling and midi and sees it as the future of music and so you have to choose SOMETHING. Tough choice. Let's hope these forums are a wake-up call to manufacturers who are not really offering us very good options.

[rickenbacker]

Apple have not simplified Logic with Logic 6 Pro/Express, that's true. But as a Logic user, I'm glad about that. I don't want something that looks and works like Garageband - it wouldn't be a fraction of the program that it is. Once you get into the program and understand the (fair enough, occasionally baffling) concepts involved, everything makes a lot of sense and there's almost nothing you can't do.

As for the price, the Pro version has only increased by a few hundred dollars, for which you get absolutely every synth Emagic have made to date. Altogether, bought separately, they'd cost you thousands of dollars. If you buy Pro, you need never buy another plug-in again - unless you personally want to. There's certainly nothing missing.

I'd also say that Logic is as stable as any computer music app can get. Tech support have always been very prompt and courteous to me the few times I've e-mailed them, plus they have the InfoWeb online resource for registered users.

The quickest way to get an answer is to post on the Sonikmatter.com Logic forum boards - that's an excellent resource. The quickest way to learn how to use Logic is to read the manuals, buy Logic Audio Workshop by Dave Bellingham and just start playing! It's not half as difficult as folk make out.

As for Sethjacquay's query about VST plugs, no, Logic does not support them natively at all. But using FXpansion's VST-AU adapter (costs about £50 or so), you can use anything. I've converted plenty of VSTis and FX - including complex synths like Spectrasonics Atmosphere, Trilogy and Stylus and LinPlug's Albino and high-end FX like GRM Tools ST bundle - with no problems. Many plug-ins debut as VST only, but then get updated as AudioUnits, too. Some even debut as AU only, such as Novation's V-Synth and BassStation. Frankly, Logic not running VST is a total non-issue.

Hope all that helps!

[sethjacquay]

The Circle,

My last post on this topic.

I don't think anyone has helped clear anything up for you.

So let us summarize, shall we:

1. Logic - is difficult to learn (AU, VST(using wrapper))
2. Cubase - has poor support (VST, AU(in a future update))
3. DP 4 - doesn't have undo quantize on selected area (AU, VST(Wrapper), MAS)

The all have support for slighty different plug-in formats(AU, VST, MAS),

but all are Rewire 2.0 compatible and contain some sort of DAE(Digidesign Audio Engine)
support.

They seem to have relatively loyal followings and must be capable enough to get
the job done. Does anyone use two or all three all the time???

Don't buy into this ridiculous "open system" argument because not
one poster has defined the term "open system".

Can you write plug-ins for all of them? Yes!
AU for DP 4 and Logic.
VST for Cubase.

Each has a long list of software and interface standards
they claim they are compatible with.

This is like arguing which breakfast cereal is better.

Cocoa Pebbles has more chocolate.
Fruit Loops has that fruitastic flavor.
Frosted Flakes has the most sugar on each flake.

In the end, it is a matter of taste and preference.

So picking one of the above 3 probably won't destory your life forever.
Try the demos and do your own research.
How many of these offer demos???

All are capable sequencers that have been around for a while.

[The_Circle]

Well i totally agree that picking one of the 3 is a matter of taste,its not like one of the softwares is professional and the other isn't,i think all 3 softwares are pro. and it's the matter of taste and what plugins you want to use..so start digging about compatability.
I don't believe that cubase offers a demo.Don't know about others but i shall look it up.
And by the way pro-tools is good for audio but it sucks in midi,sometimes its not accurate in quantize plus its definitly not as powerful as other 3 in midi.

[editbrain]

geez! if you want a product that works and is STABLE. choose logic. it isn't hard to learn. it is very customizable. probably the most intuitive/powerful of all the daw's. has everything you need to compose, cut, sample, mix, master, blah, blah, blah. there probably isn't one thing in music production you could think of that couldn't be done in logic.

i know that everyone has there opinion. i know that not everyone likes milk with there cookies, but it is hard to believe. saying that it is hard to believe that there is even a choice when you throw logic into the mix with these other apps.

apple pissed off a lot of my fellow musicians when they bought emagic and discontinued the windows platform. i escaped that one cause i use mac, but now they are boggled. they don't have a decent app to make there music on. so i guess they are stuck with logic 5 forever, or until these other apps start to compare.

logic is the one. the only one that will do what you want when you want it. i have had 18 hour recording sessions with recording and mixdown. no glitches.

choose you will, but choose wisely!

happy recording,
editbrain

This post has been edited by editbrain: Wed 17 Mar 2004, 20:52

[surrealka]

Two responses:
First to The Circle: the VST-AU wrapper essentially looks at all your VST plugins and then converts them to be used as Audio Units (which DP and Logic use). The first time you open DP after that, it examines them, and then you can use them like any other plugin in DP. I've not had much occasion to use VST's (the plugins that DP comes with do most of what I want), but it seems to work flawlessly.

Secondly, to sethjacquay:
When you say that anyone who considers DP easy to use must be "on crack", and then compare it to programs like Garage Band and Reason, frankly, I think it's comparing apples and oranges. GB is a consumer level program, not a professional system. Of course it's going to be easy to learn. Apple generally markets systems to both pro and consumer level users (iMovie vs Final Cut Pro, Garage Band or Soundtrack vs. Logic, etc.) Just as no one who's really serious about video editing would limit themselves to the low-end, but highly easy to use iMovie, I can't imagine anyone who's really serious about computer-based recording and MIDI would want to work with Garage Band. And Reason, though a wonderful program, is not by any means comparable to the kind of DAW software we're talking about. Reason has no audio i/o, no capability of 3rd party effects, no MIDI out, and so on. It's a totally different beast.

Ultimately, I agree that many of these issues are more about personal taste than anything else. I do find DP easier to use than Logic (by far!), but there's always going to be a learning curve. I do agree with the complaint about MIDI quantization, though it is not by any means a deal-breaker given all of the other benefits of DP.

One more thing about REX files: according to people who went to the recent NAMM convention, Motu is planning a Recycle/REX stlye editor in it's next major upgrade, which will allow for real time manipulation of audio loops in the way that Reason does with REX files. That's something I'm eagerly awaiting.

[The_Circle]

Well thanks editbrain,
i think i shall consider getting logic cause i have heard alot about it being the most powerful in all of them.But i just have a question what about the compatability of VST plugins and Logic??And other plugins..i guess it will do run perfectly with logic..doesn't it?

[pdgood]

Do any of you Logic users know if it has the individual un-quantize feature I mentioned earlier? Also, I've read that it has midi scrub, which is impressive if it's done right. How does that work in Logic? For example, in some sequencers (the old Opcode for instance) you just held down one button and then you could drag the cursor over the music at any speed and hear playback of all the notes. That's a huge timesaver at locating problems. CubaseVST doesn't have scrub, you have to point at and click on every individual note. Ugh. You can reset the tempo to some very slow setting and then set it back, but that's a much slower way to go about it.
I would also be interested to know if CubaseSX has these same features.
One last thing in making a choice....compatability with existing software should be a factor. For example, I use the Kontakt sampler and its forum is full of bug reports between it and various sequencers. If you're looking to buy I would suggest reading as many forums as possible. That can save you lots of headaches.

[sethjacquay]

Well...they are "on crack" aren't they?

I see your point, surrealka, but I was using
hyperbole to make mine.

[surrealka]

He he!