Pre-usb Keyboards And Usb/fiwi Audio Interface, will all keyboards work as a controller? Options

[amswineh]

As I begin to piece together some equipment for composing music, I've decided my first hardware buys are:

MIDI controller keyboard
Audio (USB or FireWire) interface (1/4" inputs, MIDI, XLRs, etc)
Studio Mic

and I'll go from there with appropriate software.

But I was wondering: I could get a USB controller keyboard. But since I am going to get some sort of audio interface (say a Tascam US-122 or M-Audio 410), do the MIDI inputs transfer through the USB/FiWi. For example, if I want to hook up an old pre-USB keyboard via MIDI, will the hardware properly transfer the MIDI calls from the keyboard and send through USB/FiWi to the computer? And will any MIDI keyboard work? Any problems you see with this setup? Did I just confuse the hell out of you?

Also, I need more information on the "debate" between USB and FireWire audio interfaces. I know which one is the best, but it's also the more expensive, and I'm pretty low on money at the moment.

just a caveman,
alphonse

[psilocybenine]

yeah just about any midi keyboard will work... as long as you make sure it is a MIDI keyboard of course... One other thing you might want to keep in mind when buying one... the sounds you are going to use are going to be largely governed by the keyboard you get... a controller keyboard (ie those that m-audio make) have no on board sounds and therefore you'd need to buy an external sound bank, use quicktime synth (that sucks, GM ughhh) or be satisfied with using your computer sequencer in conjunction with a softsynth like reason... a synth keyboard (ie roland yamaha casio korg and loads others) can control a soft synth or other computer music applications like the controller but can also be used with only a computer sequencer and its onboard sounds (GREAT)... a workstation keyboard (yamaha korg and roland make the best... TRITON EXTREME, WOW!!!) contains all the said functionality except these can be used completely on their own with onboard effects samplers and sequencers internal, many even with removeable media and expansion slots in addition to built in sounds...

go with the middle ground its most likely where you'll find yourself most satisfied with price/performance

[sethjacquay]

okay churls,

i only recently got into the midi/audio input device stuff, so i will
share my experience with you.

Setup is as follows:

Yamaha DX-11 (circa 1988)
got it for free from my Uncle (in perfect condition)

Midi Mate XP (USB to midi)
hooked up to the Yahama DX-11 (got at tigerdirect.com $40)

M-Audio Firewire 410
(purchased for $400 from zzounds.com)

Behringer B1 Single Diaphragm Studio Condenser Microphone

Sony Minidisc MZ-N707
use as a prerecorded input or Mic Input (with the Sony ECM-MS907)

Reason 2.5
Soundtrack
Garageband
Live 3.0

iMac G4 800Mhz Flat Panel 512MB 60GB HD SuperDrive
Ezquest Cobra 7200RPM 120GB Firewire HD

I was planning on buying a Oxygen8 for Christmas but the Yamaha landed in my lap.
I purchased the midimate xp and got a copy of Reason 2.5 and i was up and running.
I decided I wanted to add some voice and guitar, but my Griffin iMic was picking
up lots of static from the power on the usb channel and since I had a lot of other
stuff on the usb channel (about 9 other devices) there was latency. So I decided to actually
spend a couple hundred and attempt getting something decent. I decided not
to go usb after the iMic Latency and Static issues. Looked at the Firewire 410 and
the MOTU 828mkII. Since the 828mkII was twice the price I went for the 410.

The Firewire 410 is a solid unit. I got the midi working, with Reason, going through the
410. But I switched my midi back to the midimate usb channel for two reasons:

1 - Garageband would not recognize the midi signals from the 410 properly, only the usb
midimate, this might just be a Garageband Issue with firewire midi. For what ever reason
Garageband decide to add a incredible amount of delay after each key press.

2 - While recording in Live 3 using rewire and a mic (both connected to the 410)
there was a lot of hiccups in the monitor and some delay. (this might be processor
power issue.)

But other than those issues with Garageband and duel recording, the Firewire 410 works as
advertised. You should read my posts regarding mono input so that you are not surprised
when your playback is only coming through one side of the headphones, as I was. The 410
is recognized by all my apps as follows:

Reason 2.5 - midi input
Live 3 - midi input/line in/guitar/phatom powered microphones
Soundtrack 1.2 - midi sync/line in/guitar/phatom powered microphones
Garageband 1.0 - line in/guitar/phatom powered microphones

Garageband is the only app that I have figured out how two create mono inputs in.
Garageband is also a ton of fun hooked up to Acoustic Electric or Electric guitar, as the
effects are funny and really cool. Makes my Acoustic Electric sound like any other
type of guitar. (not really classical though)

So I recommend the Firewire 410 as it has worked well and the latency issue
is definitely a thing of the past. If you are going to purchase one though, go
in knowing about:

a. mono instruments (and how to correct it)
b. the recording issue with multiple inputs in Live
c. the issues with midi going through the 410 and Garageband

One thing to also think about when purchasing the Behringer B-1 Microphone:
the Mic comes with a shock mount that fits to a European mic stand 3/8 as opposed
5/8. You can by a cheap adapter for this but they are kind of hard to find,

I can't recommend anything else, but I can guarantee that this works better than
my old iMic setup and the dual monitoring of 410 is a pretty nice feature, so is
the clean sound, the lack of latency, and of course the phantom power.

that is my story and it is all true...

This post has been edited by sethjacquay: Wed 11 Feb 2004, 20:05

[rcase]

sethjacquay,

Can you explain what you meant by 'my acoustic-electric' guitar? What kind of things are you able to do when running that through the amp simulators in GarageBand (and/or, I assume, something like Amplitube from IK Multimedia)? I have been toying with the idea of picking up a relatively-cheap guitar for some time now, and then learning the basics. I'm a keyboard player, and I am so, so tired of trying to produce realistic guitar tracks on a keyboard. I do hire real, living and breathing human players from time to time; but for simple parts, it would be nice to be able to do it myself. Part of what is holding me up is my uncertainty over which way to go- acoustic or electric. I really will need both from time to time, but I don't want to buy two guitars right now. Thanks in advance for your (and anyone else who wants to voice an opinion) advice!

[sethjacquay]

What I mean by acoustic electric is:

an acoustic guitar with pickups
that lets you output to an amp.

click on this link to see a acoustic electric (similar to the one I own)

click on this link to see the electronic attachment (similar to the one on my guitar)
this let you output through a standard 1/4" jack
it appears the new ones are a lot nicer as they
have a built in tuner WTF!?! Now I want a new one! :-)
shows you what 7 years changes...

Anyway, I will record some samples of the sounds I can
generate with my guitar and Garageband using this setup
later tonight and post a link of my results on this forum.

I don't know how practical it would be use this combination
(i.e. Garageband) of output in a professional setting, but
for home studio peeps, like myself, it is a lot of fun.

Later...

[sethjacquay]

okay, i recorded some (not all) of the effects you can
record using my acoustic electric guitar in Garageband.

i am not really a guitar player, i mostly just use it
as a rhythum section for song writing. but this example,
made in about five minutes, should prove the point that
the same guitar can sound quite different in this
relatively cheap program. Obviously with a Compressor
and an Equalizer you could adjust the audio and
make it sound a little nicer.

Effects used are:
No Effects
Arena Rock
Bright Country
British Invasion
Classic Rock
Dreamy Shimmer
Indie Rock

http://www.paintthesky.org/mojimg/GuitarChecks.mp3

Granted I don't think it really would be sufficient for
pro use, but it is a nice novelty for home studio
recording.

[rcase]

sethjacquay, thanks so much for doing that. It tells me what I need to know; primarily, that you can use an acoustic-electric to simulate multiple guitar sounds via a GarageBand-type amp simulator. I noticed you made the pro/home studio distinction, and I understand your point. I do wonder though, if some of the settings wouldn't be sufficient for some projects that are generated in home studios, but find their way into various media settings. Several of the settings you demonstrated sounded pretty convincing to me. And perhaps the Amplitube product produces even better results. Anybody reading this who has used that one, please offer your opinions.
Now there's just the little matter of learning to play...

[amswineh]

yeah, big ups seth! thanks for all the info and feedback. Just got my 410 ($319 new!) the other day as well as the B1. Now looking out for some deals on keyboards at the moment.

cheers,
alphonse

[sethjacquay]

Okay, BenUptheTree gave me this tip with the Behringer B-1!

You might have figured it out on your own, but basically
the shockmount fitting is a 5/8 fit with a 3/8 adapter inside it.
The bronze colored piece, just look at it and you will see.

To get the 3/8 adapter out, you just use a flat head screw
driver and gently unscrew it.

Congrats on your new system and the prices.
You can PM me with any questions you think,
I might be able to help you with.

Lates,
Seth