A Simple Question, Logic Pro vs. Pro Tools; Logic Express vs. Logic Pro Options

[csoste]

Hi,
I'm looking to buy a new recording program that will allow me to make broadcast quality recordings that can be submitted to record companies, managers and considered for film and tv placements rather than the simple demos that I' ve been making for the last few years on GarageBand. The price of Pro Tools and Logic Pro is pretty steep at the moment, so I'm looking for a good alternative to them. So, as a result, I have a few questions. But, before I ask my main question, one question I have is what is the difference between Logic Pro and Pro Tools and which one works better? Secondly, and most importantly what is the difference between Logic Express and Logic Pro? And can one make professional sounding broadcast quality recordings on Logic Express that can be released to the general public? Is there a manual, website, book or anything similar to these that tells someone exactly how to use Logic Express, and also says which mics, mixers, and other accessories are needed in order to use it effectively? And does it describe how to assemble them and set them up in a way that gives the best recording possible? Finally, if Logic Express is not sophisticated enough to make broadcast quality recordings, is there a program for the same price that is?
If someone out there could give me answers to these questions as soon as possible I would appreciate it a lot.
Thanks.
All the best,
csoste

[Stuarta]

HI there is a ton of difference between Logic Pro and Pro Tools.

First of all, Pro Tools requires that you have some specific hardware (Apart from the Free Pro Tools versions, which are OK, but more for messing around with than serious production).

Logic will work with Pro Tools hardware but it will also work with just about anything else.

Logic started life primarily as a sequencer and as time passed became a full blown digital Audio workstation, with built in Soft-synths, EQ, Dynamics, in fact the whole shebang. The Express version is basically missing some of he features of the Pro Version, one big one is that it will not work with Pro Tools (Digidesign TDM hardware)

There really is no best when it comes to choosing which of these you would prefer, except that as far as MIDI is concerned, you have a lot more MIDI functionality in Logic that you do in Pro Tools. A lot of people will tell you there is enough MIDI capability in Pro Tools as it stands and I agree with them. But the fact does remain thee are people out there who are MIDI wizards and want a lot more MIDI than Pro Tools offers. Logic Pretty much offers it all in the MIDI area.

On the other hand, if you want to spend some serious money, go out and but the Pro Tools TDM HD System.

This is a hardware plus software combination, that will enable you to get incredible quality recordings.

Logic is capable of producing very high quality recordings as well, (Remember it can use the Pro-Tools Hardware) in the case of Logic it comes down to the Device you choose to interface audio input and output with your computer.

When it comes down to getting what sounds like final recordings ready for release, it all comes down to experience and knowledge.

I use both Logic Pro, and Pro Tool HD TDM also Digital Performer, by MOTU, most people using either of thee setups could produce high quality finished products, as long as they know what they were doing.

My brother in the UK for example uses a pretty Powerful PC and Acid from (Sony have bought out now) and he is making a ton of money.
He has way less than 1/8 the financial investment in gear compared to what I have and he can still produce final release quality music. A lot of it better than I do, in some ways.

On the subject of broadcast quality audio, I wonder are you referring to FM radio, NTSC television or High Definition TV. The reason I ask this is that they all require the audio to be modified (Usually compressed) so that it can be transmitted and in most cases HD being a special issue, the actual sound quality is reduced, as compared to a CD that has been created Mixed Down and of course finally mastered.

In fact in most cases it is this final step, called Mastering that can make a CD full of audio tracks ready so to speak for release.
Mastering is nearly always done on the final Stereo track, so if that is all you need to do, then you probably do not need-either Pro Tools or Logic Pro. They both offer you the capacity to do mastering, usually with the assistance of software Plug Ins, Waves being a good example.
If you need to work with more than 2 tracks and are at the stage of getting everything in balance sound-wise, getting the Sound-stage set up, like the Drums in the middle the Bass wherever you want it, the Singer of to one side slightly etc, then you are really still in the process of Mix-down, again Mastering to produce the final output, is mostly done on the 2 tracks that are produced by the Mix down.

Pretty wide ranging question you asked here.

There are web sites all over that offer advice on Pro Tools and on Logic and in fact on almost any subject related to Music and audio.

For Logic support you can find a lot of help at www.apple.com/support/logic., for Pro-Tools then Digidesign.com would be the place to visit.

Depending on what you are recording there is no reason that you cannot make final release versions of your Music using Logic Express, but you may have to get some additional Plug Ins to work at that level, and if you are that serious about your Music, then I would get the Full Version of Logic, it is very Powerful and loaded with features.

Pro Tools HD is fantastic when it comes to actual recording and working with Digital audio, but the cost is not small.
At the very least you have to buy a Core Audio card, an Interface that will plug into the card and the Pro Tools Software itself. Of course Digidesign has special bundles that are worth investigating and you could get a great deal on Ebay, as long as it is an actual auction and not a Professional seller.

Most folks will buy the Core card plus a DSP card, this will give you more capacity for using TDM Plug Ins and more tracks (By the way, TDM Plug Ins are usually a lot more expensive than Native Plug Ins). A 192 I/O device, and then of course the Input sources, Synthesizers, Mike Pre Amps Etc, which you would have to buy in any case.

This brings up the subject of Native, versus TDM.

The Digidesign TDM based systems, are designed to provide you with a completely dedicated audio system, that places very little load on your computer's CPU. On the other Hand, with computers becoming so fast these days, it is possible to have a complete Digital Workstation, with Synthesizers and just about any other device basically (everything is a simulation, and some of the synth sims are incredible, but they can eat up you CPU power in the blink of an eye) you are using the Power of your computer's CPU to produce the audio you want. Just remember to do all this work in Native requires a pretty powerful computer. There is nothing worse than getting a synth set up to sound great, only to get a message telling you that you don't have the CPU resources to go any further. A lot of the art of using Native systems, is really management. You might want to convert some of those synth tracks into actual audio for example, as it takes less CPU power to play the audio track, then it does to manufacture it live.

Which is best probably comes down to how much you can afford to spend.

Once you are into the Digidesign TDM, you can expect, given good quality sound sources (They also have synthesizers that work off the TDM system, along with everything else) to get fantastic quality recordings. Their interface to the computer is great and this is probably the most important factor to bear in mind when creating a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW). The primary drawback to TDM is probably mostly cost. Also you will probably find that there are a lot more Plug Ins available in the Native or VST systems than there are in TDM. Mind you what is available in TDM is probably all that you will need.
I run my Pro Tools with a Core Card and 2 or 3 Accel DSP cards, along with 3 192 I/O systems with a ton of other hardware all controlled by a Mac G4 still running under Mac OS 10.3.9.

Basically an obsolete computer (If you want to see it that way, system), but because it is a dedicated audio system and is not used for anything else at all, I see no real Performance loss and would probably not see a great deal of performance gain, even if I ran it on my Dual Core 3Ghz Mac Pro, unless I used Pro Tools with a combination of TDM and Native Plug Ins (HTDM), then I would need an updated CPU.

Now as I use Logic Audio as well, I tend to run this in what is called the Native Mode. This requires as much CPU Power as you can get, and Logic Pro even provides Nodes that allow you to use any other compatible computers to get even more CPU power if you need it, and you probably will eventually.

The biggest issue with Native systems, is what to use to get the audio in and out so to speak..

There are tons of Interfaces out there that run from $200 to $5000 +. What are you getting at the highest price. Top quality Digital to Analog converters and Analog to Digital Converters, along with inputs and outputs of different kinds and quality. What we are talking about here is garbage in equals garbage out, and the better your Interface will convert your Analog audio into digital Information, the better your final sound will be. This is also true on the output end as well.

Don't be put off by the high cost of the high end gear. There are people out there using relatively inexpensive interfaces who are producing great music.

I sometimes look at my Pro Tools system and realize that in the long run, it was probably less expensive than the native system, as it is still running on an older Mac and I really have not had to add much to it, other than Plug Ins, since I set it up. I have not spent a nickel on it apart from the Motherboard backup battery, which usually lasts about 4 years, for at least that long. Long life can equate to less expensive in the end.

Depending on what kind of music you are producing, as long as you are not recording Live Voice or other instruments, then you can work almost entirely in the digital domain, right up until the end when you have to get he audio onto a CD.

If you are recording Voices or other instruments, asking which microphones to use and what set ups are best, you are really into a grey area here. Some people recommend one way others a totally different method. There are entire books on the subject.

You can record your Vintage LesPaul directly into your computer without ever putting it through an Amp (DI or Direct Injection ) You definitely will lose something in the final sound but you will also avoid a lot of the hassles involved in Miking up and Amplifier, making sure that the room you are recording the Amp in is well balanced acoustically ETC. With some of the Effects Pedals available, like the Line 6 POD series, you can actually emulate an entire range of amplifiers and microphone set ups. Plus they provide the usual Distortion Overdrive, Delay Effects with Wah Wah modulation etc, allowing you to pretty much sculpt the sound you want from your Guitar.

Mind you it will never sound like your Les Paul Plugged into a big Marshall stack, to get that you will have to record it and go through all the hassles of live recording (worth it though)

There are many arguments for both methods, in the end it comes down to personal preference.

Recording the Human Voice, probably still remains the hardest thing of all to record and digitize, but here again there are Microphones that cost $ thousands and some that cost a few hundred.
Then you will need a Pre Amp with outputs that will match the inputs of you audio interface, and on it goes.

Yes you can make good music that is release ready relatively inexpensively ( I use the term Release ready as opposed to Broadcast ready, as Broadcasting generally reduces the inherent audio quality due the actual bandwidth of the radio or TV carrier waves) . If you have a CD quality sound, don't worry, if a radio station wants to play it, they will set it up for the best output they can get from it. This is another aspect of Mastering which although it only involves setting up the 2 stereo tracks, does ensure your music will sound great on a car audio, Home Stereo, Radio broadcast Etc.

In reality there are many different means to get the sound you want in the end and obviously cost is a factor here.

It is pretty much what you gain on the swings you lose on the Roundabout.
Yes Logic Express will suit you fine, it most definitely can produce the audio you want. Don't forget that once the sound is in Digital Format, you can do almost anything you want to it.

IF you have Logic Pro with a cheap interface and Logic Express with an expensive one, guess which will sound the best.

I would take a look at some of the MAudio gear, don't rule out Logic Pro even if it is expensive you get the whole kit and caboodle. There is another one out there that is fantastic and that is Digital Performer. You may not get all the bells and whistles you get in Logic Pro, but it is definitely easier to learn.

One product that is truly amazing is an application called Melodyne. This has to be the most unrecognized DAW in the world, yet it has features you will not find anywhere else.

I now this has been a long reply to your message and probably as far as this site is concerned, I am a Newbie.
I guess when you have been playing and recording since the 60's my time has been pretty taken up. Now I can kick back a bit and maybe pass on some of the stuff I have learned over the past 40 years.

I love Music and I think it is great that the computer has really opened up the market to a lot of people that would never have been heard other wise.

Always remember your final audience and what they are expecting from the type of music you produce.

You may not need a room full of equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of $.

A reasonably good Interface to get the sound in and out again, a DAW Application that you can use rather than spend the next 6 months trying to figure out how to get even a noise out of it..
A real good set of Studio Monitors. This is probably the one area you really cannot be cheap with. THe good ones will tell you the truth, the cheaper ones might sound good but when you put the sound through a set of good speakers you will hear all the faults.

I hope this helps you, it was one of-those questions that attracted me and not many do.

[emgcarra]

[/quote]
Dear Csoste: This one is a piece of advice you won´t find in a retail store....in your entire life...!!
Thanks to Stuarta for such a fine answer. I do subscribe each and every word of it.
These are the thing I like of this site....

emgcarra

[csoste]

HI there is a ton of difference between Logic Pro and Pro Tools.

Thank you so much for all your advice to the two of you that answered my post. I think it will help me tremendously. I really appreciate it.

This post has been edited by lepetitmartien: Mon 6 Oct 2008, 17:10

Reason for edit: no need of the whole quote don't we? ;)

[Wisteria]

Thank you so much for all your advice to the two of you that answered my post. I think it will help me tremendously. I really appreciate it.

I'm new to this forum and for my first post ever I just want to say thank you to Stuarta for such an extensive/practical and informative answer, this forum is going to prove very helpful for me with my decisions, I needed help in this exact subject, so thanks