The Name Of This Forum Is An Oxymoron, Dude, you're gettin' nowhere--fast. Options

[Levon River]

hello levon!

Hello, rageheart!

it may be helpful if you told us your "story".

It was a dark and stormy night...

maybe you can tell us why you needed to switch to osx,

Let's go the other direction: you tell my why I shouldn't be ABLE to use the operating system that's been the Mac operating system for almost three years. Then I wouldn't feel so much like I had a seat at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party.

which os/platforum u used before and whats your setup u can't get runnin.

Rageheart, I've used about every Mac operating system you could name, on at least 13 different Macintoshes. I have at least some experience, I think, with every music-related program of any consequence at all that's ever come out for Mac. In my own home studio (I freelance in others), I've run Digital Performer, my personal favorite, for over three years, using MOTU MIDI and audio hardware and a very wide range of software effects and synths. There is NO "setup" I can "get runnin" under OS X, and I hope the above brief resume tells you it's not because I have no clue.

we should then be able to give u advice.

Thanks very much. I appreciate it. The only advice you can give me that will work is "don't use OS X right now for music." I believe I've already gotten that message loud and clear from Apple and the music hardware and software manufacturers and retailers, thanks.

but maybe that isnt needed anymore...did u sell ur mac already?

No, and if I did sell my (mostly) dedicated music computer, there are four other Macs here.

p.s.: although we may come from different locations (im from germany), we all live on this planet and should treat anybody friendly and with respect.

I agree completely. If anything I said to you was misunderstood as being disrepectful or unfriendly toward you, please accept my unreserved apology. In fact, I'm trying to reserve ALL my disrespect and unfriendliness for Apple right now, and certainly don't want to squander it on the innocent bystanders who are all adrift in the same boat as I.

[Levon River]

CD-Xtract is on its way

There is so much that is endlessly "on its way." If there is a precedent for an operating system that it has taken existing, thriving software and hardware manufacturers nearly THREE YEARS to catch up to, I'd like to know what it is. Music isn't the only arena where MAJOR players (Adobe, Quark) are still just sitting on the sidelines scratching their...scratching something. But the music area has been especially hard-hit and abysmal in the wake of this OS tragedy. I think that Apple's "transition" to OS X will go down in computing history as just one of the biggest FUBAR evolutions ever. It's just pathetic, that's all.

Do YOU think the forum should be called "Limited Music with Macintosh on Mac OS X"? :-(

I was thinking more along the lines of "The Emperor's New Operating System."

Still, everything is coming slowly...

Coming, coming, coming. Why weren't they "coming" a year before OS X was even announced? Was Apple really keeping their developers that much in the dark pre-OS X? If so, then they deserve ALL the criticism that can possibly be heaped on them for this utterly insane mess we, as musicians and Apple supporters, find ourselves in.

(Pro Tools and Digital Performer will be there at the end of the year), probably many plugins with them, too. Because the real problem is here: plugins...

Yeah, that was exactly my deduction in another thread, that the "audio units" were majorly bugged at the OS level, and there's no point selling razors if you can't sell razor blades.

Re: my comments on "Core Audio" and "Core MIDI":

Come on, this system's integration is a great thing, OMS vs FreeMIDI was a pain in the a**, IMHO... Same thing for VST/MAS/RTAS/AS plugins. Everybody made his "thing", incompatible with each others.
Let's move on, shall we?

Yuke, old pal, NONE of us *can* "move on." That's the whole point. Yes, all of those pains in the a** were exactly that, but there is NOTHING that *works* right now to effectively replace them. The fact is the fact is the fact. The promise is HYPE until it is realized in a useful way. The fact is... Well, read your own post. The fact is that the promise has not been realized in any useful way, and we are almost three years down the road. If the manufacturers were caught like deer in headlights when OS X hit, then there is nobody to blame but Apple for gross negligence and incompetence in informing and coordinating with their third-party developers way early and helping them gear up for what was coming. And if there have been CORE level system bugs that have hung up developers, then the crepe *still* should be hung on Apple's door. That's how *I*, your humble narrator, sees it. YMMV.

Don't leave the ship, we need every sailor ;-)

This ain't a ship, Yuke, it's a beat-up life raft, and it's awfully leaky. And Apple is who has abandoned us out here in it. That's why I'm clamorously clanging on this bell. But I'm still here. Perhaps much to Apple's discomfort and dismay.

And OS 9 is perfectly usable for quite some years, i think.

Maybe it is for those who like sitting in it while the world passes by. The way Apple botched the transition, at least for musicians, it sure looks like it *better* be.

[xingu]

Amen Levon!

Granted, this commentary (rant) comes with no experience whatsoever. But that's kind of the point...

The only reason (no pun intended) I'm even involved in this forum is because a friend of mine (and bigtime Mac enthusiast - actually a developer, but not on the audio side) basically convinced me a few months ago that I should just get a G4 to solve my home recording concerns. Little did he realize how NOT ready this solution was.

Sure, os9 is workin' fine for all those with previous experience. But I hopped into this Mac-hopper (and am now $2,000+ deep into it) expecting to be able to use what I have (i.e. the most current technology) to "simply" enter the world of home recording. Sure, Reason is working relatively well in osX with my US-428, but that doesn't help me much if I can't add in my bass, guitar, and vocals! In other words, I'm waiting (with baited breath) with the rest of you.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering if I shouldn't have just saved 90% of my investment and just bought a flippin' 4-track! Of course, in the long run, that's sillly, but I certainly understand the frustration so eloquently laid out by Mr. River. Here's to progress (and fast)...

[Presto]

Oxu means sharp and möron means stupid. If we called Apple a beautiful fiend, that would be an oxymoron.

There's an X in the oxy bit, and its followed by mor..., erm, um, oh, dear! Please don't take it badly. You must admit it's an easy joke. Aaah! I think I've just been given an appointment with Madame Guillotine.

Actually, I should imagine talking about making music on OSX is as useful and as much fun as talking about doing it on OS9. That's what the Forum's for, isn't it. (Maybe I'll get let off). Specially, when problems arise. (Oops, shouldn't have said that)

However, I really shouldn't join in discussions on OSX though, as I only know two things about it:a) I have it on CD, and b) it's quite unobtrusive. (I wonder where the planet Mars is in my astrological sky). Well, I do know something else: if you're employed as a musical app developer for OS9, you may find your boss doesn't want to pay for your time spent getting Unixed. (That should save me)

Anyway, I think my MacOXY disk is keeping company with my electrickle screwdriver which I'm afraid was a deception too. I'm very fortunate though. I have an older ordinary screwdriver which works obediently any time I want to have a good scr... (er, oops!) "Please!! No!!!"

A powerful sharp disk slices down through my neck. Clunk! As my last ten seconds of consciousness wane away, my head rolls to a stop. My eyes fix the guillotine and the shiny, but bloody disk engraves an ultimate message on my fleeing soul: X

[Stuartpa]

I would say that right now the only reason to go to OS X for Music or Audio is to experiment with it.
There is hardly anything worth talking about that is fully OS X Native although that will change pretty soon.

On the other hand OSX is nowhere near as fast as OS 9. It's a drag in some ways but OS X is going to be the future there are a number of issues that are definitely going to change the way we work on OS X.

First of all to get to your Hardware in OS X you have to go through the Kernel or Core of the system and this being software it is always going to be slower than going direct to the hardware as OS 9 does. Of course as the systems increase in Power you might not notice the performance loss, especially as OS X is a true Multi tasking environment.
X is also another way to get you to buy the latest in Apple hardware. I am definitely a real Mac Addict and have been since they very first came out with the LISA, but Apple have definitely never in any way been a user friendly company ( Unlike their computers)
I don't know how much I have spent keeping up tith the Macs but it is a lot and a lot of the expense could have been avoided.

Security could also be a big issue on X as it is based on one of the Most Hacked and Cracked systems that exists Unix, this also applies to Viruses etc.

OS 9 is not invulnerable nothing is, but the number of viruses that attack OS 9 can be listed on one page of text where you would need a Bible sized book to describe all the Viruses available for PC's or Unix.

So really at this time there is not a lot of good reasons to go to X,
I have one system running X for experimentation and learning but all the systems that have to produce are running 9 and I don't even keep X on the boot drives that run the Music systems.

Unfortunately after this next batch of Macs apparently we will not be able to boot into 9 at all, we will be able to use 9 from X but a lot of Music hardware will not permit that.

So for now it is really a waiting game and I am going to wait until I can have everything I am using now on 9, in OS X.
So based on that thinking is one of the reasons I got into the latest release of Macs as I am probably going to need to run 9 for quite a while.

Please GOD (Jobs) do not completely drop support for 9 for at least 3 years. I know he won't listen

[FroBoy909]

All you whiners remind of those old-timers that sit around and bitch&moan about the "the good old days" and how "things used to be better" and "they dont make em like they used to" and all those other cliches and adages common to people not willing to accept the move towards something new and, most probably, better. you all feel and sound helpless like there's nothing you can do but watch the whole world crumble right in front of your eyes. boo f'n hoo. another adage/cliche comes to mind: "rome wasn't built in a day."
you also remind of those dirty hippies and psuedo-liberals that sit around and complain about the system and how nothing's working out right--or at least not the way YOU want it to be--but come mid november do these guys find the time to actually go out and vote and possibly use their own power and rights as citizens to maybe CHANGE things? no, of course not, cuz to them things will never be better. not like they used to be, anyway. yesirree, we're all find and comfy sitting here in our little ruts we got here. nuthin we can do though, not at all.
please.
the whole point of os x is not so jobs can push his new little toy on a bunch of unsuspecting, feeble-minded fools. the point of os x is that it is open. how many times did they stress this when pitching their new system that first year? the point is to start something of a revolution (there you go, hippies) in that people wont HAVE to wait around (as you people love/hate to do so much), they can actually DO something. there are countless brave little developer pilgrims out there expanding their horizons with osx, finding out ways to do things they just couldn't do with os9; and this goes for musicians, too. "if you want something done right, do it yourself" (to coin yet another old chestnut) is what jobs is going for, i think. it's something of a global "F*** OFF" to the likes of microsoft and big business and basic universal conformity in general. it's the open source creed. maybe its cyber communism, who knows. but its working. people like things their way. and with open source systems like osx, people can do things their way, it just takes a little work and some research.
so if you want more progress with music and musicians on macs, try putting in some contructive input instead of sitting around suckin your dentures and reminiscing about the good ol days of os9. pick up your feet and try to help out. tell apple what's wrong with their coreaudio or midi, or try to figure it out yourself. what makes macs so great is that they encourage users to fix their problems on their own, and this is even more true now with osx.
and have faith in those other guys (ie logic, digidesign, motu, etc). it aint easy to redesign a complicated sequencing program from the ground up. maybe they just dont want to make the same mistake that apple did in releasing and selling a piece of software that isn't completely finished being developed. my experience with apple is that they always tend to have something up their sleeve, and if they dont then they will soon. the wait will be worth it. in the meantime, go vote...metaphorically speaking.

[Teiwaz]

FroBoy909, absolutely right!

We don't want to get a reputation for being a bunch of old grannies sitting around eating digestives drinking tea and moaning about our angina or OS9.



If you have a working system on OS9, then what's the problem?



Of course OSX ain't ready yet. So why try to pull on the plant? You can't make it grow any faster. You'll just pull it out at the roots. I never touch anything new in terms of software until I see that it has stabilised. This can take anything from a year to 3 years...it's not as if OS9 don't work, is it?!

I prefer to get on with the music, but some people seem to spend more time than necessary fiddling about with beta installers and new operating systems that are full of bugs...



Let it be...

[Levon River]

"we are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams"
---willy wonka

Um, that attribution would be Arthur O'Shaughnessy--not Willy Wonka.

If I follow yer logic (and I apologize to Mr. Webster for taking such liberties with the word), it seems that my mistake was electing to be a musician instead of a programmer--at least if I plan to use OS X.

Me, I'm not a do-it-yourselfer. Since you are, have you got a quick url for us to some music you've made with OS X? Or to the program you wrote to make it with? Heck, some of us geezers might want to set aside our walkers long enough to try it out.

[FroBoy909]

sorry, i dont showcase my music. namely because i have none to show. like you, i am waiting for those big names to come up with something i will be happy to invest my dollars in. unlike you, however (it seems, anwyay), i try to remain optimistic and have faith that those companies that once had your trust will come through with something quite extraordinary, and with os x's abilities i like to think that anything less than extraordinary is damn near impossible. just look at Reason X and tell me that program isn't a success. who knows, maybe i'm just a dreamer[I].
BUT...i think, levon, that you missed my point.
what i am saying is that it does no good to complain about the way things are and expect somebody else to fix it for you. you can spout criticisms til your blue in the face but it gets you nowhere. ask mr jobs himself and he'll tell you that it's the people who strive to do what others cannot who actually achieve what others wish they could have. and who says you cant be a both musician and a programmer? i know that the artist BT is both an excellent musician and an accomplished coder. if you're willing to limit your own abilities (who knows, you could be an awesome programmer) then you have no right to criticize others who are actually trying to accomplish more. hey, you might like getting into the fundamentals of coreaudio, and it's probably a lot easier than you think. i know that, as a musician, i find the stuff very interesting. and just think: then you wouldn't have to wait for ANYbody. you could do your own tweaking right at the source. personally, this is where i see the future of musical composition. but that's just my opinion.
and british poets aside, it was mr willly wonka (aka gene wilder) who characterised the line and whose voice has been speaking the line in my head since childhood. so, for all intents and purposes, we are both right and both wrong. no hard feelings.

[Johnny Valium]

who says you cant be a both musician and a programmer? i know that the artist BT is both an excellent musician and an accomplished coder. if you're willing to limit your own abilities (who knows, you could be an awesome programmer) then you have no right to criticize others who are actually trying to accomplish more.

You always have the right to criticize big companies. Apple's efforts are about a certain kind of business policy that has little to do with the open source scene and everything with branding. Think different? If you can afford! If I remember right the development of apis is totally under Apple's control. So if something really was wrong with core audio at system level and I was a monster coder I still wouldn't be able to do anything about it. It's up to Apple to deliver working solutions. If they don't and instead concentrate on iApps and switching campaigns I can perfectly understand that. But as they don't seem to give a damn about MY needs as a user I have the right to get angry. Another example is Motu's 4 months old 828 beta driver. If they were interested in user feedback they would release a new built every week, but it just seems like they don't care. I'm not sitting on my butt complaining I'm working with OS 9 and it's not working good enough for me. So I'm trying to do something while waiting for salvation.


Johnny, defender of pessimism