designlord

Pc | Mac Performance Question... Edit V

Hello All,

To give you some background, I'm a PC user from the DOS days and I'm currently running a Custom AMD 64 3000 with 3GB of RAM. I'm a gamer and game developer and musician and I need advice from those who have used both Mac and PC for a good clip of time.

I selected the base line Mac G5 and then selected my Custom PC parts for a 2nd computer within the G5 price. Here are the specs.

Apple G5 Power Mac

1.8GHz PowerPC G5
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (Supports up to 4GB)
80GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Total = $1,500
or $2,224.00 with 2GB of RAM and a 250GB Hard Drive

Custom PC

AMD Athlon 64 3000
3GB PC3200 RAM
WD Caviar Series 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard
GeForce FX 5200 Video Card with 128MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical
Windows XP Pro
3U Rackmount Case

Total = $1,300


My biggest problem is I have never seen any comparison of PC vs Mac dealing with audio apps like Logic, Cubase, or ProTools, which I find odd given the “Everyone who is a music pro uses Macs" sort of quotes I have seen and all the talk.

I noticed on Apple's site that the single 1.8 G5 vs a 3.4 Intel is 20% > on machines with 2GB of RAM in a Photoshop filter test. But given RAM is a big, big part of performance (especially with a fair amount of plug-ins) a base line 1.8 G5 with ONLY 256MB RAM might not have that 20% margin against an AMD 64 3000 with 3GB of RAM.

Here is why I'm hesitant..
The only reason I can think of why Apple doesn't do comparisons is because the performance isn't that great over the PC anymore, and with XP improving (I'm running an OSX skin on XP) the cost/benefits don't hold up like they used to

Apple has been having quite of few PC like issues with compatibility problems, loud fans and there is a general sense of a loss of quality (I build my own PC's with a lot of research on parts and I never have issues). Also Apple's install base is lower then most PC makers and there appears to be a negative trend of the quality getting worse the more popular the product gets. This leaves me to conclude that part of their previous quality and overall success is due to it naturally being easier when you have less product to deal with, and a more niche, experienced professional market. For example Apple has a market share of 3.8% for US Personal Computer Market July 2004, while Dell had 34%, HP 19.3%, Gateway 5.6% and IBM 5.6%. Given the numbers, for every 1 mistake Apple has Dell will have about 30. So I think reality is coming to the Apple platform and they are finding out it may note be as easy to do what Microsoft and the PC does, even though Apple's customers for the most part think PC's stink compare to Apple's. As you can see the comparison isn't really Apple's to um, Apple's = ). Any Apple users see this trend as well? Have you had many problems with the last OS change and hardware update.

Cost. Even if I was rich, a $1000+ bucks saved can buy an audio interface to speed up the machine, a new Gibson Les Paul, a down payment on a new car. Maybe it's the programmer in me but it isn't computing. = )


Here is why I'm interested..

“Everyone who is a music pro uses Apple”, which means unless these people are just stubborn loyalist afraid to try new things, or dumb, then there must be something useful to Apple's.

The interface and design is great. I have played on them a bit, but no long term experience to compare my PC experience in audio or programming.

I want to try to port my game technology to the Mac and tap the growing but open market.

Also, any news on how Cubase SX 3/ Nuendo compares on Mac vs PC? I have read that some Mac users think the Mac version is taking a backseat to the PC in development, and the PC version is running much better then the Mac version.

And finally, does upgrading a Mac “breaking the seal” VOID the warranty?? Given that Apple is trying to run a hardware monopoly and charging $525 for an upgrade to 2 GB of RAM when I can buy 3 GB of Corsair for $300 I find this important. I didn't see it listed in plain text on the warranty. But if it doesn't that would help me justify the switch and save money. Otherwise,, since I just can't buy a new low cost part like on PC I wouldn't want to void the warranty and then have the Motherboard die.

So can anyone help? Any Mac users here really know, or do you all just take it on faith that Macs are better? That is hard for me to do given the cost involved and that I'm not careless with my money.

Please no rude, unhelpful posting. If you need to do it to get off then by all means, but keep in mind that I'm interested in Macs or I wouldn't be here, I would do the same if a PC cost $1500 and I could build my own Mac with a larger HD and more RAM for $300 less.

Thanks All!

A Pc | Mac Question

Hello All,

First I want to thank you for taking your time to read this. That spirit is what computers has always been about, only we aren't using Altair or Apple I anymore.

To give you some background, I'm a PC user from the DOS days, when Apple already had a Alto based interface and in terms of OS alone was way ahead. I'm also a PC gamer turned game developers and since after about the Apple II (which a lot of great game developers started on) Apple was in a decline as a games platform and it wasn't an option for me.

I'm also a musician, and as my game development project progressed I started to devote more time to my music. I began building my studio and seeing what software and hardware worked well and what I liked. I'm now at the threshold of going full force with my music and really focusing on it, and I want to complete a powerful studio. I need to figure out my core and I'm trying to see if Apple is the best option. I have also have thought about tapping the Apple game market since great games are still fairly rare but the market is growing. So given all that, and also keeping in mind that a lot of people be it Apple or PC use their platform because it's what they started on and know, and i know PC, I need advice from those who have used both for a good clip of time.

I have never seen any comparison of PC vs Mac dealing with audio apps like Logic 5, or Cubase, or ProTools which sucks, of if you have let me know. I was checking out Logic 5 for a bit before it went Mac only, so I changed to Cubase (also because I think the Cubase audio sounded better, which now makes sense given its Nuendo roots). As deep as I got into both apps they seem to be on par. I recently went to MOTU's site to see DP which is also Mac only and that looks nice. And then there is ProTools LE, or maybe even an base line HD or Nuendo.

So please what is your feedback on these sequencers? Does ProTools HD just do everything that much faster, real time mainly, is that its claim to fame? And does LE really compare, or just share a name? I'm not sure the ProTools studio compatibility is as important as it once was since a lot more studios will work with wave files. Digital Performer also file compatibility with ProTools. So I'm assuming that PT excels in speed and does most everything real time, otherwise its just another sequencer?

What is your experience on performance? I read some Mac users claiming that Cubase isn't as tuned for Mac and the PC performance is much better now. Plus that Yamaha purchase has me wondering about the direction given what happen with Logic dropping PC.


Cost / Performance - Coming from PC this makes it very hard since given what I have already I can build a few High end PC's for the price of a Mac. That is why I'm trying to get some advice.

Also, VST Link under Cubase, any users out there? I have thought about this as a good reason for Cubase as I could use a Mac and my other PC. But again if other hardware systems like ProTools does everything much faster, real time, then it may not be worth it.

Anyways this is a Mac I was looking at, and then the PC I would get if I stay. Keep in mind, for me the PC price would be a bit less since I already have a fair amount of stuff, but I wanted an even keel.

Apple G5 Power Mac

1.8GHz PowerPC G5
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (Supports up to 4GB)
80GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Total = $1,500

Custom PC

AMD Athlon 64 3000
3GB PC3200 RAM
WD Caviar Series 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard
GeForce FX 5200 Video Card with 128MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical
Windows XP Pro
3U Rackmount Case

Total = $1,300

As you can see for 200 < then the G5 I can get 170GB more of HD space, a video card with 128MB of RAM, a rackmount case (Note: I could go with a standard case and save about $150, but if I go PC I'll have at least two so I want to get them racked to save space), and the BIG difference 3GB of RAM. Keep in mind I can buy parts over time, something Apple has totally failed allowing. On the up side that MiniMac is finally a nice step, but I doubt it would work for me in Audio, and likely not in Game Dev.

Is the 1.8GHz PowerPC really that much faster when dealing with Audio then the 2GHz AMD 64(aka 3GHz Intel CPU)? I know this is likely since NINTENDO and MS are using IBM to make CPU's for their console, just as Apple does for the Mac, but how much a gap is in question.

I haven't seen any real numbers outside the stupid Photoshop filter test. But I noted on Apple's site that the single 1.8 G5 vs the 3.4 Intel is only 20% > on machines with 2GB of RAM, and RAM is a big.. big part of performance so a 1.8 G5 with ONLY 256MB RAM might not have that 20% margin against a 2GHZ AMD(3GHz Intel) with 3GB of RAM;

So the G5 above is $2,224.00 with 2GB of RAM and a 250GB Hard Drive (its an extra $525 for the RAM and $200 for the Hard Drive upgrade.) This brings it up to the 20% lead as in Apples Benchmark. $1000 more! So I can have 2 of my Custom Machine for the price of one Apple, well for less given the extra PC parts I have, but for anyone else it would be about 300 buck more then the Apple for 2 Customs.

So that is the hard part for me to get past. And the fact that Apple is supposed to be all about music, but yet no benchmarks?

HELP! = ) Apple does a lot right, and so does Microsoft, but since Microsoft and Apple aren't likely to combine and bring the bests of the two companies together, I would like to have a Mac since I haven't had one around for extended time. ( I have an TRS 80 =) )

I hope all this information helps others. And please, mac cross overs, or the rich, do a comparison to get some hard numbers for us people who would like Macs but can't get over Apples tight customizing fist and the price it creates. It reminds me of Packard Bell who would charge 3k and throw in a lot of useless software and such. Also, I just read the standard warranty but didn't see it, does adding new parts yourself (ie breaking the seal) void the warranty? If not then I could customize the apple a bit using PC parts to help offset the cost.

A note since this will come up. I don't know what everyone else is has been doing to their machines but Window XP running Cubase, or Logic, doesn't Crash for me, and I don't have compatiblity problems with software or hardware. Granted I know more then your average user, but mainly it's about getting the right hardware, something PC manufactures don't always do, that is why a lot of people have issues in my experience. Also, given Windows install base and the fact that very fool has access to us a program to upload a virus hack a computer it is very open to issues on-line that Apple isn't. I have firewalls and all sorts of scaners and I haven't had a problem, but as a note my studio rig will be off-line unless required for some registration, otherwise I'll use one of my other rigs, so viruses and all the other such reason's Apples are better that I have seen don't apply. I'm after G5 performance info to warrent the price as well as how the various Sequencers work on the given platform and the benefits.

Thanks All.

Begin Rant

FOR MR JOBS - Maybe one of you hardcore Mac men can send him this. =)

I just want an Apple machine running OSX at a reasonable hardware price compare to PC. 2GB RAM upgrade shouldn't cost $525 when I can get 3GB of Corsair RAM for $300, and its all DDR RAM. that is just hardware monopoly, and everyone doesn't like MS for its software monopoly.

End Rant