Help With Mio 2882, Dp4, And Recording Setup..., ...did I mention I need help? :) Options

[naschbac]

Hi everyone,

I'm still muddling my way into this multi-track recording world, and I'm
having a hell of a time. First let me get all the extraneous details out of
the way.

Here's the DAW setup:

1 Ghz Powerbook G4 Titanium
MIO 2882+DSP w/ 1.3.9 firmware
MacOS 10.2.5 w/ 1.4.0 MIO drivers
Digital Performer 4

Okay I'm new to DP from an old world of Peak and Deck. So I'm having a
great deal of trouble setting it up in a way that makes any sense to me. I
think part of it is that I don't understand the relationship between some
components and others.

So first I need help understanding how the MIOConsoleX software fits into
the equation with my recording and editing software. It seems to me like
the MIOConsoleX app is the virtual equivilent having a series of controls
and a mixing board as they would behave if they were in hardware on the MIO
device. Is that correct? So in a sense the MIOConsole device is
independent from the recording software.

Next I cannot for the life of me create a working setup that makes sense.
Let me describe what I'm trying to do, and what I'm doing, then you tell me
where I'm going wrong.

Here's what I'm trying to record:

3 mic's on a drum set
1 mic's on vocals
2 electric guitars
1 electric bass guitar

Here's how I have things connected on the Inputs:

Vocal mic #1 is connected directly to Analog Input 1
Drum mic #1 is connected directly to Analog Input 2
Drum mic #2 is connected directly to Analog Input 3
Drum mic #3 is connected directly to Analog Input 4
Guitar #1 is connected from an Amp's pre-Amp out to Analog Input 5
Guitar #2 is connected directly to Analog Input 6
Bass Guitar #1 is connected directly to Analog Input 7

Here's how I have things connected on the Outputs:

Analog Input 1 is routed to Analog Output 1 to a monitor for vocals
Analog Input 6 is routed to Analog Output 6 to a guitar amp
Analog Input 7 is routed to Analog Output 7 to a bass amp
Mix 1 and Mix 2 are routed to CANS outputs so I can monitor Analog 1 through
8 and DAW 1 & 2

First I need help with some basics. Which is better? Connecting the
instruments directly to the MIO or running them through their amps first and
then sending the line-outs to the MIO. If nothing else it would get rid of
the Analog outs I've connected except for the CANS. The problem I seem to
have is that I have to add a LOT of gain/trim to the input signals to make
them loud enough and especially to the mic signals to keep them up with the
guitars and bass. On the mic's I have the channel settings set to "Mic" and
I have the Phantom power off. On the instruments I have the channel
settings set for "Inst".

Second what does the "Mixer" in the MIOConsole effect? It appears to only
have an effect on how the Mix 1 & 2 channels sound as I monitor them, and
not any effect on the levels that get transported to the recording app, or
the levels that are output from the MIO to the various amps. Everything of
that nature seems to have to be controlled by nothing other than the "Trim"
knobs in the "Analog I/O" pannel of the MIOConsoleX app.

I think that's everything that's specifically related to physical setup.

Now on to the software...

In DP4 I think I want to have a mono audio track for each Analog Input
right? So I created 7 new mono Audio tracks. I set the input on each one
to Analog 1 1 (mono) through Analog 7 7 (mono) respectively.

The outputs I have no idea how to setup. They don't make any sense to me.
I want DP to just output each of those 7 channels to the equivilent of DAW 1
through DAW 7, but I don't know how. I thought it was supposed to be "bus
1" through "bus 7" but that most definitely doesn't work, and worse if I
select any of the "bus" channels as the output for an input I can no longer
record on that input, the app doesn't get any level activity.

I bring up the Mixer board in DP as well as the Audio Monitor. In the Mixer
board I click the little "REC" button on all 7 tracks then leave everything
else at the default. So long as I have all the inputs set to have an analog output in DP4 I can at least see activity on the Audio Monitor window in DP4. However despite seeing activit on the Audio Monitor window the little level bars in the Mixer board window don't do anything. The only time I can ever get the Mixer board to show activity is during playback, and that doesn't make any sense to me. It seems like I ought to be able to use the mixer board to make adjustments prior to recording, and while recording.

Okay, well I think that's plenty of questions and problems for now. I'd really appreciate any help anyone can give me. I'm really loving playing with this stuff, but there is just so much thrown at me at once that I have never seen or experienced before that it's beyond overwhelming at times.

Thanks,
Nathan Aschbacher

[bilhep]

Hi Nathan,

I also am new; perhaps newer than you are to the recording arena. I've never used Bias or Peak. I use a Yamaha Portable HD recorder, called an AW16G. I willnot be able to zero in immediately to the core of your issue but, if you wish to communicate, I believe we can aid each other.

It sounds like you are trying to do two things at once. I read some of the details of MIO and it is the mechanical and electrical interface between your computer and your recording environment. As such you determine if you want to record or monitor. For recording it is the window which DP will look through to see the instruments; for recording.

As you do this you will certainly want to monitor the activity, either through headphones or speakers. Either way this will be accomplished on the stereo output and not the buss which, I believe, is used to conserve HD space when you do not need to mix an incoming signal.

My current advice is this; concentrate on getting the signals into the mix in DP first; get a handle on that and then concentrate on the monitor signal which will either go to the powered speakers or the input of your guitar amp.

I hope this helps. There's tons I still need to learn myself and it's easy to get mixed up trying to accomplish everything at once; especially with a new set up.

I just ordered a M-Audio FireWire 410, to both interface the Mac with the Yamaha and to provide a MIDI port. When it finally arrives I can forsee a whole new set of issues.

Bill

[naschbac]

Okay well I've got a few things figured out.

First it's always best to mic the amp of an electric guitar, and the bass too.

With the guitars taking the direct signal feed makes the sound too sharp, too harsh. Getting the natural distortion caused by the speaker of the amp helps with sound quality tremendously.

The bass wasn't as big of an issue because it doesn't produce as rough a signal as a regular guitar.

I threw condenser mic's in front of each amp, and it's much easier to get things like the levels between the drums, the vocals, and the guitars more consistent when none of them is feeding their signal directly into the MIO. The only problem with this so far is that we ran out of condenser mic's and so we are using an SM57 for the vocals which requires a bit too much gain applied from the MIO. I haven't tried enabling the phantom power even though I don't think the SM57 typically needs it. Could be wrong about that though.

Digital Performer is still a little weird. I'm finding that all I can really do with it is set it up to record and then adjust all the levels and mixes from the MIOConsoleX app. This strikes me as odd because it creates a serious problem for being able to apply real-time effects like reverb to the vocals and adjust the levels in DP directly. However for playback the levels in DP are active.

It's very strange.

Most of this help was provided by the great folks on the MH Labs MIO mailing list. There are a lot of great people there, competent professionals in very high places. If you're an MIO owner or are thinking about purchasing one I'd consider browsing the mailing list.

-Nathan

[gidfiddler]

hello , i am know expert on DP and am waiting for my version of dp4 myself , expecting to encounter similar difficulties myself , so have been watching this topic .
would just like to say from my understanding you should be able to monitor with real time effects (within limits of your rig) though I am not sure how .
however this may not necessarily be the way to go . the standard way to record is to record "dry" and add the effects later . (which gives you the option of changing the effects ). however i can understand why in certain circumstances it may be advantageous for the performer to hear the effects as they play .

why don't you post your difficulties at unicornation.com where you will expose them to many more dp users ?

good luck Dave

[krisg]

i have been using DP for years now, and here are some thoughts on the moc OS 9 version, which in most respect is very similar to the MacOSX.

1. You can't monitor your inputs with the effects on without serious delay problems. This is espacially the case with drums and bass, where the player needs to hear himself with practically no delay what so ever. On thing you do though, if you want hear, say a reverb, you can create an AUX track, and assign the input to the analog input of your card your instrument is hooked up to. With some reverb fx, the dly will not disturb, since most reverb programs have what we call the pre-delay, anyway.
2. SM57 is a dynamic microphone so no phantom power is required. In any case, when a condenser microphone that needs phantom power is hooked up without it you will get no sound out of it.
3. You don't see the levels in the mixer while recording. To see those, have look at the audio monitor (shift+a)
4. I don't exactly see what card you are using. I suppose it is none of the motu's. But if you have mic/line pre-amps on your card, and despite those you don't have enough juice, then two things come to mind. Either the pre-amps are too weak, or the mices are too far away from the source. If they are dynamic mics, they most often have to be close to the source, whereas the condenser mics allow for much greater distance.
5.The outputs of the DP are assigned in the output column. If you don't see any available, you can create them. Once created, they become available in all the other tracks.
I will continue later on