Apple goes Intel. Why?, Apple Options

[lepetitmartien]

Just wrote something really stupid, it'll run on x86, the development kit is a PIV.

And we still don't know 90% of the real deal (motherboard, in/out, CPU, etc etc).

A side note on rosetta, the emulator of PPC code to run on x86 (from Apple developer documentation):

Rosetta is designed to translate currently shipping applications that run on a PowerPC with a G3 processor and that are built for Mac OS X. Rosetta does not run the following:
- Applications built for Mac OS 8 or 9
- Code written specifically for AltiVec
- Code that inserts preferences in the System Preferences pane
- Applications that require a G4 or G5 processor
- Applications that depend on one or more kernel extensions
- Kernel extensions
- Bundled Java applications or Java applications with JNI libraries that can’t be translated

So recent apps will need either the universal code or the x86 only to run. ESPECIALLY OURS.

I may don't care what's the CPU inside (as long as there's not a ugly sticker written intel inside that s…s) but as a customer, I'd like not to have to buy the software again and again and again.

Also, Logic users must be laughing a lot…

This post has been edited by lepetitmartien: Tue 7 Jun 2005, 01:55

[abcdaniel]

Yeah, really, f*** it. New versions, new versions, new versions. How long time ago users (especially musicians) painfully moved their creative environment to OSX? Too long ago, eh? Let's do it again! Superfun! Transitions, dammit!

Who knows what kinda crazy transitions these people got in their mind for the future? They are surely taxing their user base.
If apple don't end up supporting the PPC for a LONG time ahead, I have doubts if I'll be buying a "mac" again. Feeling seripusly cheated as a loyal consumer.

At this point, all the clumpsyness of using Wintel seems overshadowed buy the hungryness for transitions by Apple; that hungryness makes Apple humpty dumpty.

[vaal]

At this point, all the clumpsyness of using Wintel seems overshadowed buy the hungryness for transitions by Apple; that hungryness makes Apple humpty dumpty.

I'm sure that Apple didn't want to have to make this transition, but they were pretty much forced into a corner. I've been paying attention to both Intel and AMD's progress over the past year, and it seems that their roadmaps look really good. A lot better than the PowerPC roadmap, anyway.

There's a reason why most people, including myself, use the Mac platform. It's certainly not because of the hardware, although the designs are great, they've been lacking a lot of the newer technologies found on the x86 side. PCI-e is a great example of that. Now, there should be no reason why Mac users get left behind.

Another great thing about this transition is that there is a greater potential of Apple gaining more marketshare, and at the same time gain a lot of new developers. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a surge in Mac gaming, for example.

Before anyone gets all bent of shape over this transition, just remember that it's for the best, and that PowerPC can no longer benefit Mac users with its future roadmap. That's just an unfortunate fact of life.

[abcdaniel]

Isn't mr Steve known for being a bit** to work with sometimes? This move seems irratic, sort of like a feud, kindergarten style. Apple wonn't play with IBM anymore!

The mac hardware is tight, nicely integrated, fast, high quality at this moment. It has got a robust architecture and lots of bandwith. What is x86?!?
Of course mac os is the main feature of a mac, but with another os mac hardware would still be attractive as hell. It is for a lot of linux nerds.

Remember moving all your apps from OS9 to OSX? I recently did that, and it sucked. Now we have to do it again and it will again suck, but the two combined in these 4-5 years are just horrible.

[coldharbour]

Yeah well, at the moment PPC is looking pretty good - but where's the 3 GHz G5.. where is PowerBook G5? In the end IBM just could not deliver and a companyl like Apple can't just stand waiting while Wintel machines overtake in performance.

Apple's share of IBM's production is less than 2% so Apple does not have much leverage there. Apple certainly is in no position to force IBM to develop more powerful and energy efficient processors for their machines, especially now when IBM has their "not-suitable-for-desktop-machines-or-laptops" -cell technology sold to Sony and Microsoft.

Remember moving all your apps from OS9 to OSX? I recently did that, and it sucked. Now we have to do it again and it will again suck, but the two combined in these 4-5 years are just horrible.

As Steve said, it won't be nothing like that. The universal FAT binaries will run on both x86 and PPC architecture, and Rosetta will make PPC binaries run on x86 machines in a totally transparent way.

x86 architecture will bring a load of *NIX apps over to Macintosh, plus that we'll see a lot more software in general released on Mac because porting is not an issue anymore.

You can also scrap VirtualPC as there'll probably be a WINE style solution to runnung Windows apps straight on OS X. You can probably also boot your machine natively to Windows if you like - but PC users will not be able to use OS X. I'm sure Apple will take care of that in their new Intel motherboards. Just remember that it has been impossible to crack Logic 7, protected with a mere USB dongle.

Just think what that'll do to Apple's market share. A whole lot of switchers are on their way.

[abcdaniel]

As Steve said, it won't be nothing like that. The universal FAT binaries will run on both x86 and PPC architecture, and Rosetta will make PPC binaries run on x86 machines in a totally transparent way.

But as lepetitmartien said:

A side note on rosetta, the emulator of PPC code to run on x86 (from Apple developer documentation):

QUOTE
Rosetta is designed to translate currently shipping applications that run on a PowerPC with a G3 processor and that are built for Mac OS X. Rosetta does not run the following:
- Applications built for Mac OS 8 or 9
- Code written specifically for AltiVec
- Code that inserts preferences in the System Preferences pane
- Applications that require a G4 or G5 processor
- Applications that depend on one or more kernel extensions
- Kernel extensions
- Bundled Java applications or Java applications with JNI libraries that can’t be translated

So recent apps will need either the universal code or the x86 only to run. ESPECIALLY OURS.

Just as we couldn't run OS9 music apps under Classic in OSX, we won't be able to run OSX PPC music apps under Rosetta in OSXwintel. We will have to upgrade again, and wait for softdevs to make "Rosetta-carbonized" versions.

I see this over the coming 5 years as being a very bad experience. After that, after mac has settled down into a stabile platform, it might be a good thing. But then again, maybe we will have to make another transition at that time.

Now it seems like a better solution to make apple into a software company, and drop the hardware. Make OSX run on any x86 box, then at least we as users will not be forced into the whimsyness af apple and partners. That is acceptable and a bit fun, having a closed intel box not knowing when the next transition will come is not.

[chidders]

Er... Am I missing something?

When this move to INTEL chips takes place does Steve Jobs plan to visit every current Mac user and force them to buy a new one? Does this move somehow make every old Mac in the world stop functioning?

I have a G5, and I'm looking forward to many years of good service out of it. That's one of the reasons I bought a Mac. It does me proud now, and I can't see what will stop it working when the new INTEL based ones come out.

[coldharbour]

Just as we couldn't run OS9 music apps under Classic in OSX, we won't be able to run OSX PPC music apps under Rosetta in OSXwintel. We will have to upgrade again, and wait for softdevs to make "Rosetta-carbonized" versions.

It's not Rosetta, it's Universal Binaries that'll be the answer. It's not a matter of "carbonizing", it's just a matter of recompiling.

Recompiling is not a major task but I'm sure some discontinued software and legacy products will not end up running on x86. I don't see that as a big problem. That happened with OS9 -> OSX transition as well and we've survived.

But I agree, it causes a bit of stress. If I buy a new x86 Mac I don't want to pay Apple anything extra to get my Logic Pro 7 running on it. And it won't run on Rosetta, I want the recompiled and optimized version and I want it for free. And I don't want to hear about 3rd party plug-ins not working or not being compiled.

We'll see how it goes. But looking at the big picture, I think moving on to Intel was a great strategic move from Apple.

A side note on rosetta, the emulator of PPC code to run on x86 (from Apple developer documentation)

Is it possible to get a straight URL to that document?

I have a G5, and I'm looking forward to many years of good service out of it. That's one of the reasons I bought a Mac. It does me proud now, and I can't see what will stop it working when the new INTEL based ones come out.

It doesn't stop working, but you'll just have to hope that all the software you need is being released as universal binaries for years to come - not only compiled for x86 architecture. Steve Jobs or anybody can not guarrantee that.

This post has been edited by coldharbour: Tue 7 Jun 2005, 13:11

[vaal]

Er... Am I missing something?

When this move to INTEL chips takes place does Steve Jobs plan to visit every current Mac user and force them to buy a new one? Does this move somehow make every old Mac in the world stop functioning?

I have a G5, and I'm looking forward to many years of good service out of it. That's one of the reasons I bought a Mac. It does me proud now, and I can't see what will stop it working when the new INTEL based ones come out.

Your machine won't be obsolete, nothing will stop functioning. Like he said in the keynote, they have some more PPC-based Macs in the pipeline. There is absolutely NO REASON why you should stop your life at all. ALL of your current apps will work, as well as future apps.

EVERYTHING IS OKAY!! :]

This post has been edited by vaal: Tue 7 Jun 2005, 14:40

[abcdaniel]

i've might have worked myself up a bit here... was drunk when writing my first angry-post ...hung over when writing the next... now I'm getting closer to equilibrium...
...but I'm thinking like this:

During this coming year, instead of having software developers optimizing their code for the G5, getting the maximium performance and stability out of our hard/soft combos, they will shift focus to the coming x86 architecture.

Right now we have great machines, functioning nicely indeed (except for teh funny sounds when scrolling ) But haven't many of us thought about the 64bit architecture? About how our G5's will get better and better the more 64bit OSX and software becomes?

The power of the G5 will probably never get properly tapped. And in a couple of years PPC code will get downprioritized and we won't have access to the latest software. At least not optimized.

And I don't know if a recompile is enough; all code written for altivec will either have to be lost or added (depending on if you're developing for x86 or PPC) and altivec is an integral part of the G4/G5 performance.

Yeah, yeah, now let's make some music.