Suggestions Please, What hardware/software Options

[BobAdamson]

Hello musicmakers,

I have a few questions before I get into the meat of the subject. I am a long time Mac user (][e). My wife has a 17" Powerbook. My kids all have iMacs or Ibooks. The house is wireless. I purchased iLife to play around with GarageBand. Just as I was starting to get into it, my wife complains that she can no longer get on her Mac. See, I have my office at home and unfortunately, MY computer is a Dell. So, to keep the peace (and avoid buying another Mac for now), can anyone suggest something that might work well (I know that is redundant) on Windows?

I am a long time amatuer guitarist/keyboardist/singer/songwriter. My wife is a teacher. What I want is some kind of setup that allows me to record a few back up tracks to accompany live playing. It doesn't have to be elaborate, but I might want to do more than that, who knows? So, any suggestions?

[jklimeck]

I understand your need possibly to save money on a new Mac.

But, I have only one thing to say, Music on Windows, you are joking right?.

Garage Band on Windows?, Please let's pretend you never even mentioned that, we'll all act like we never heard any of this Windows stuff.

Simple, in OS 10.3 , use multiple users and fast user switching, your wife can have her account and setup and you can have your music setup.

It works fine, i do it here on my G5 with DP4 I use for production audio / music, keeps apps and user accounts separate.

Now things not working like they once did before you installed GB, that is par for the course with any computer, you install some piece of softwae and there is always a chance something no longer works, but 10.3 is pretty forgiving in this area.

want more help, I'd be glad to, e-mail me, jklimeck@mac.com

This post has been edited by jklimeck: Thu 6 May 2004, 21:55

[BobAdamson]

No, I wasn't suggesting GarageBand on Windows. I would have bought a new G5, if VirtualPC worked on it, but I was told no way.

Come on alot of people make music on Windows, er don't they?

It's not a matter of multiple users, that is set up on her PB. It is access, when she wants it so do I. She also believes (but cannot substantiate) that my music affects her Mac. Slows it down, makes it crash and yes, she has 10.3.4.

I do have an Ozone keyboard/Midi controller that is bimusical (that means it works on Mac and Windows). I bought that because of the mic preamps and midi in and out.

Are there truly no options but to buy another Mac (not such a bad thing, just lets me have less money for other components)?

Thanks for any help.

[aptmunich]

Of course you can make music on a pc...

Take a look at cubase (sl or sx, whichever is the cheaper one...)
or protools free if you have win 98 or me...

[jklimeck]

Sorry for this book, but I felt compelled to address this in detail.

One of the main reasons that is cited in buying a PC over Mac is one: price

I digress briefly here, but certainly it can't be that PC's are the standard or majority in the music / film world, because they are not.

But these same Windows users will give you the same argument for PC's in the business world accounting for 95% or more (which is correct ) to justify buying / using a Win / PC.

So I just use that same argument back on PC users.

95 % of the music / video world uses Mac's, it's common knowledge and common fact.

I digress, but I felt compelled to interject that.


There are many articles regarding this issue of price, which is not my point in this article, but need to mention.

This is a fallacy, total cost of ownership is the same and in most case MORE expensive than a Win PC. Corporate buyers as well as schools are well aware of this, (their main argument is software availability, which is another issue totally).

Another reason: A Win / PC user experience has been argued that it is "just as good" as a Mac.

Well "just as good as" does not cut it, and I argue Win XP is not only not "just as good as" but in fact the ugliest, clunkiest OS the world has ever seen.

Sit in front of XP for 30 minutes or so (having been on OS 10.3) or try OS 10.3 for a while, it becomes rather obvious.

In fact I do not know how people can tolerate the Fisher Price, god awful look of Win XP (and many people change it to the Win 2000 because it is so ugly).

Also an interesting observation, this forum is MacMusic.org, not PC Music, yes people are free to do whatever you wish of course, buy a PC, buy Windows, etc., but remember where you came to, to a Mac Music site, I am just wondering why?

Here is a funny and true story. I used to work with a guy at Apple who wanted to buy a computer for pro music, he actually wanted to check out the "cost" of upgrading his old PC.

He wanted my advice and I said I could never assist anyone in considering or actually buying a PC, it was against my better judgment and that I was the wrong guy to talk to in this matter (and I professionally supported Win NT 4 PC's in the Corp. world for several years, so I am qualified and I know).

I said he should buy a G4, and use DP or Logic. Actually everyone he talked with said the same thing.

I told him you work at Apple, buy a Mac, you know they are better, he said I know, but...

But what... If you a looking for justification to buy a PC, there are tons of them, and equally to buy a Mac.

But I submit this is the case with many people who are considering a "PC", they already want a Windows PC for whatever reason, their mind is already made up and there is nothing one can do to change this.

I also interject, this is exactly one of the main reasons why The Apple Swithcer Ad has failed miserably, most people have been inundated with Win / PC and for them there is nothing else, they won't switch, for whatever reason, price, software, etc., it's psychological.

I digress again, but regarding Price, which I believe is the only really valid arguments these days and really only on the low end entry level of the Mac line, Apple needs a low cost box to compete with the like of Dell, like yesterday.

Very soon, I believe Apple is going to address this. I believe as many of the Mac web sites have reported, Apple will release a low cost maybe (700 dollar or less) "headless" but powerful Mac, just to get people started on the Mac, Mac OS X and the awesome Apple applications out there, iApps, FCP 4 Express, etc.

Price will ultimately not be an issue on the Mac (for consumer, small business and even pro-sumer), so it will be time to use another excuse to not buy a Mac.

I have encountered this phenomenon time and time agaim, from home users to small business users to Corporate IT Managers, fine, you don't need to justify your PC purchase, I don't care, and really most Mac users don't care.

We are busy making music on our Macs and enjoying the wonderful experience.

Feel free to buy a Win PC, buy your Windows music programs and get busy making music.

But why do many users do this, waffle, PC? or Mac?, search for reasons, when they know they will buy a PC anyway, and then need to justify it.

Insecurity, that's it, they need to defend their reason to buy a Win / PC , just buy it and live with it, period, end of story.

Anyway back to my story, we went to the PC shop, he quickly found out upgrading was going to be a complicating and costly process, and the sales guy started in on him to buy a new PC, a Celeron no less to do music?, ultimately the cost was now more than a new G4 (at that time) and he was going to buy it and did buy it, even though it cost more than a G4 (and was slower), so this cost argument was a lie, a veil, a dog and pony show.

This guy (in this case was a rather spineless character, not implying that Win / PC users in general are the same in anyway) really wanted to be like his friends, and wanted to be accepted and they used Win PC's so I should to, he said to me.

He actually told me this, Wow, talk about insecurity issues, etc.

You see my point, this is typical of many Windows users, they say things like price, this or that, etc. ultimately they by the PC for whatever justifiable reason they can find, like "everyone else uses a PC".

My relatives use this one over and over and you know what, that is true because the world is average, Windows is a commodity, and as Truman said, "The world is run by C students". Average.

So why, why I ask you are people coming to MacMusic.org asking for reasons to buy a PC and for music no less,

I submit this:

1) your are definitely in the wrong world for such, we are too busy loving our Macs, 2) somewhat insecure about your reasoning and really inside you know the Mac is the best way to go, you just want to talk with fellow Mac people, which is cool and that is why we are here, so Welcome!

Many people can not recognize excellence when they see it, and many and most Windows / PC users can't either, until you get on a OS 10.3 Mac on a fast machine and use all the wonderful apps, Final Cut Pro Digital Performer 4, Logic 6, etc., all of which do not and will not run on Windows.

So if you (think) you want a Windows / PC (especially for music, video, etc) by all means go and by one, you are free to do so, but don't use the arguments I list above, they won't wash with me. In fact don't try to justify it at all just go buy it and use it.

I close with this, My close friends don't get it, my parents don't get it, many people don't get it, either you get it or you don't, and here's to affirming that somehow someday computer users see the intrinsic excellence in the Mac experience (and the intrinsic lack thereof and actual complete mediocrity of Windows / PC's by comparison).

That's it, peace, Good luck to all

JK

[jklimeck]

Sorry for the long dissertation, but Music on Win / PC is as funny as Mac's in business, the same logic applies.

PC's don't belong in pro Music / Audio production they are a poor, lousy substitute.

Can you use them, of course, but why in god's name would you choose a PC over a Mac? especially at music.

before you answer...

I think I did a pretty good job at de-bunking, pretty much all of those reasons.

again peace,

jk

[ghess]

An analogy to the argument that more people use PCs than Macs is that far more people own Chevys than Mercedes, but that doesn't make them better. To take the analogy further, which car would you rather have when it's five years old. For that matter, I'd rather have a five year old Mercedes than a NEW Chevy. Just my $.02

[Jaysee]

re the mac vs PC argument....... I think one problem is that Joe Public has had it thrust down their throats that the only yardstick with which to judge the power of a computer is the fairly meaningless umpteen Mega/Gigahertz processor speed. I told a bigoted PC owning friend recently that my next computer would be a 1.8 GigaHertz dual mac, he came on with the "my Dads bigger than your Dad" routine and pointed out that his PC was twice as 'powerful'. Until the public are educated that this point of view is erroneous, they'll be prey to the silly adverts purporting to show the PC's superior 'power', and making mr Gates ever richer. Look at how outraged and irate the PC market became over Apples promotion of the G5 'fastest computer on the planet' claim. Maybe when G5s get up to the promised 3 Gigahertz mark by the end of the year there might be a few more converts. Another common reason I get all the time from pitying PC owners is the macs 'one button mouse'. It doest boither me but maybe that should be addressed by apple as standard issue, just to woo people to cross the PC to mac bridge.

[jklimeck]

Jaysee,

Yes, I totally agree.

1) First, if you are not going to use or buy a Mac or even consider such because of a one button mouse that ships with the Mac, my God, someone has issues, and you are not going to buy a Mac anyway.

a Mouse, is going to affect you that much.

Hook up a Logitech 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel and be done with it.

I work with Shake users on OS 10.3 that require a 3 button mouse, this is not an issue.

2) The megahertz argument seems fading into the sunset, losing steam, even Intel and AMD are changing their speed measuring marketing and naming.

But speed still matters, and it has been addressed. Thank you IBM.

PC people who are still using this are way ignorant and stubborn, they are not intelligent debaters.

Actually most informed PC techs / users will not use this anymore, because it is not a valid argument anymore with IBM, they know this, so they have dropped this and moved onto another excuse: price, software, etc.

The fact is with Apple and IBM, the new IBM 970 G5 and 980, 990, etc., the speed / architecture has been more than addressed, and Apple and IBM are actually leading.

Apple is way back in the game with IBM, that is a fact, PC users know it, Mac users know it, IT managers know it, analysts know it.

I don't' think speed / architecture will be the issue ever again, IBM has addressed this.

...but Price is the issue.

Apple must be solely keyed on this, especially in the low end.

Apple needs a low end powerful Mac and cheap. Here is what I propose.

A small aluminum box with a 1.6 G5, 40-60GB HD, 2-4 ram slots, shipping with 256-512 MB RAM, 1 AGP slot, 1 PCI X slot, 10/100 ethernet, CD/DVD.

No monitor, 700.00 or less,

Apple should do what MS is doing with XBoxes, sell the boxes cheap (although I hear this is not so successful for MS).

PC users have this modular brainwashing, separate monitor, separate CPU, Apple needs to give them this, as well as give us Mac users this. Provide choice.

The low end Mac line is muddled, or you can say there is a gaping hole.

The iMac has become a overpriced , funny looking, (I think ugly) thang, very few people even Mac people want to buy them,

Practically irrelevant, in its current form and price.

and the eMac, I think it is ugly, clunky and underpowered.


What does Steve J do, I am not sure he kills the iMac name, but originally this was the purpose of the iMac, a low cost all in one.

Steve J and Apple need to put out a new low end G5 for 700 bucks, call it whatever you want, but it fills a gaping, practically embarrasing need and provides a driving purpose, an entry level price point to get people onto the Mac platform / experience.

If you need more power and expansion you go for the G5 towers that can be all Duals, etc.

I think we will see this in some form or another, I would buy 2 of these boxes right away if they existed.

Now back to the PC guys,

Convincing PC people in general I feel is a hopeless cause (and I feel metaphysically an incorrect stance, because if you have to defend a view point, what you are really saying is, I myself don't believe it).

So PC users have to come to you and ask questions, sincerely, and then you provide the points I mentioned, then let them do what they want or wanted to do all along.

If they attack you and your passion for the Mac and are the emotional, just looking for a fight type, change the subject and / or walk away.

It is a social, economic conditioning and they like what they like, but for me it simply comes down to what I said earlier, "Mediocrity".

Microsoft is the king of mediocrity and always will be.

I still feel Mac OS X is the best, slickest most wonderful OS out there so I use it, the new hardware is fast and only going to get faster, Apple's Apps are some of the best on any platform, FCP, Logic, DP4, and they don't run on Windows.

And Apple continues to make technology that inspires us, like the new mini iPod, this is just going to continue and it will be great.

thanks again,

peace

jk

This post has been edited by jklimeck: Sat 8 May 2004, 18:31

[BobAdamson]

Wow, did I touch a nerve or what?

Please, I have been as much involved as any of you in the Mac PC debate. Even before then, when I used (still own) the Apple ][e or the Apple GS (almost left Apple products after that one, but still stayed with them, but still own). I outfitted my business initially (6 people working for me) with 6100's (still have several, I never can bring myself to throw away a Mac) after first trying an IBM system 36 (another fiasco), before having, yes having to use Windows machines to run specific software. When it came time for me to upgrade again, I really wanted to go with G5's. Unfortunately, Microsoft bought Connectix and Virtual PC does not run on the G5. Yes, it will run on the G4, but I have so learned not to buy technology that is not the latest, greatest, and most up to date.

I posted my question because I was forced to make MY computer a Dell. I was hoping for some sympathetic advice on how I could make my Dell less distasteful. Instead I am being used as the basis of slamming others in General.

I apologize. I will post no more.