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Posted by: Dadoo Mon 12 Jan 2004, 05:21

I'm just getting into the fascinating world of digital music recording. My wife and I play music together for small and large group things. I would like to be able to add some fullness to our sound by creating our own accompaniment CD's so that we can play along with a "full band", so to speak.

I just got the M-Audio Audiophile USB and it came with a "lite" version of Ableton DELTA Live. I've played around with it some and have recorded a couple of things. I find it rather complicated for what I'm doing, as I think it is more of a looping/sequencing instrument that just happens to have recording capabilities. I also find it frustrating to get sound consistently in and out of the program as I seem to have to quit and restart the program for it to recognize that I have an audio input for it. But this may be beside the point because I think it is not the right program for what I want to do.

I have hear a little about a shareware program for OS X called Jasmine. I see that I can download a demo of it. Does anyone have any experience with this program? Basically what I want to do is to plug in my bass, guitar, keyboard, drum machine, maybe some backing vocals, and record them on different tracks and then make them into an AIFF file that can be burned onto a CD. I want it to be simple and able to produce good digital quality sound. Will Jasmine work for me? Is there another simple and basic program that works in OS X that I should look at?

I'm doing my recording on a 600 MHz iMac, running OS 10.2.8, with 512 MB of RAM.

Thanks for your replies. I know I have much to learn!

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Mon 12 Jan 2004, 05:32

I'm thinking http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.sagantech.biz/metro/products.shtml will work best for your needs. There is a demo available for download, check it out. It is a simple straight forward program that is expandable, as your needs grow.

Posted by: swilder Mon 12 Jan 2004, 07:28

Audacity is a hip little app if you don't need many features or a super chic interface. It's free. I use it to show beginners that's it is possible to do decent audio work without spending wads of cash.

Scott

Posted by: Dadoo Tue 13 Jan 2004, 02:13

Thanks for the tips so far. I have never heard of Metro SE, but I'm checking it out at their website. As for Audacity, I have downloaded that before but all it did for me was crash.

Posted by: TYDYMKR Tue 13 Jan 2004, 07:38

I USE AUDACITY FOR RECORDING AND SPARK LE FOR EDITING AND PROCESSING. I HAVE HAD SIMILAR PROBLEMS WITH AUDACITY UNEXPECTEDLY QUITING, BUT THE NEWEST RELEASE (1.2.0 PRE 3) SEEMS TO HAVE FIXED MOST OF THE BUGS.

Posted by: swilder Tue 13 Jan 2004, 19:11

I haven't tried out the demo yet but this looks like a decent piece of software for about the same price as metro

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.intuem.com/main.html

Scott

Posted by: rickenbacker Wed 14 Jan 2004, 15:26

Intuem really sucked when I tried it last year. Maybe they've dramatically overhauled it since. You'd better hope so.

Just one user's experience.

Posted by: Dadoo Thu 15 Jan 2004, 02:37

I'm really appreciating all the tips. It's a bit unnerving unless you've seen something "in action". Thankfully, many of the products have demos or are shareware that you can try for a month. Now I just need to find more time! So far no one has commented on Jasmine. I saw it mentioned in an article in Machome Journal about setting up an inexpensive recording studio at the low and mid range for the home user. They seemed to like it but I was wondering about other's experiences with it.

Posted by: Dadoo Thu 15 Jan 2004, 06:40

Now, I know this program is OS 9 only, but what about Cubasis VST for Mac? Would that be a good program for a newbie? Can you save your recorded stuff as AIFF files to burn to CD? I have seen this program at a very good price, so am tempted!

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Thu 15 Jan 2004, 08:08

I started out with cubase, and got no where.. the learning curve was so steep that I spent more time mad than actually recording. BTW being mad does not help the creative juces flow.

Posted by: rickenbacker Thu 15 Jan 2004, 13:27

If your Mac can boot into OS 9, Cubasis is OK. Fine to get started with at any rate. You'll soon outgrow it, though. Also, if you think you might continue with Cubase as your skills/enthusiasm develops, be warned that the OS X versions (SX, SL etc) are a world apart - much of what you learn on Cubasis will be different in OS X. Might make more sense to decide on one program (whether Cubase, Logic, DP, Pro Tools or whatever) now and move straight into that. It'll last you much longer that way. Or try Garageband in iLife - that's only £40.

Posted by: Dadoo Fri 16 Jan 2004, 02:50

I've looked at some of the other Steinberg software you mention and even downloaded the demo for Cubasis VST. I found it complicated, as some have mentioned. I also found out that it cannot save recorded stuff as AIFF files, only mp3 and WAV, which is not too helpful for burning your own stuff and playing it on regular CD players.

As for Garageband, I was very excited seeing it come out at the Macworld Expo last week. Unfortunately after checking the system requirements at Apple, I figured it wouldn't be the one. These are the requirements:

Macintosh computer with a PowerPC G3, G4 or G5 processor
600MHz G3 or faster required for GarageBand
G4 or faster required for GarageBand software instruments
733MHz G4 or faster required for iDVD
256MB of physical RAM
Mac OS X v10.2.6 or later (Mac OS X v10.2.8 or later recommended)
QuickTime 6.4 or later (QuickTime 6.5 included)
Display with at least 1024-by-768-pixel resolution
DVD drive required to install GarageBand and iDVD
4.3GB of disk space required to install GarageBand, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD; or 250MB to install iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie only.

From that I get that my 600 mHz iMac would just barely run GarageBand, but not any of the software instruments. I would also not be able to use iDVD since I have neither the processor requirements nor a DVD playing drive. Also it appears that I would not even be able to install GarageBand as it says that a DVD drive is required for installing it.

So, as of now, it seems that my options are down to continuing to use the "lite" version of Delta Live 1.5, or trying out the demos of Metro SE, Intuem, and Jasmine. Still have not heard of anyone's experience with Jasmine!

Posted by: rickenbacker Fri 16 Jan 2004, 16:49

Try the demo of Tracktion, too.

Posted by: swilder Fri 16 Jan 2004, 18:47

I tried Jasmine once. I really didn't care for the gui that much.

Posted by: swilder Fri 16 Jan 2004, 18:51

Audio/Sequencing programs are processor/ram hogs. If you're serious about running something professional grade like cubase, logic, digital performer, protools, and the like. You'll benefit from a machine with lots of ram an a speedy processor

Scott

Posted by: Dadoo Sat 17 Jan 2004, 01:57

Thanks again all who have given their input into this. Tracktion I've never heard about so I'll check into that as well. And Scott, thanks for the comment on Jasmine. Other than the interface, any other problems? Is it easy to learn and does it give decent results? By the time I'm ready to move into anything more serious like Logic or Cubase, I would have a machine capable of that. For now, I just want to get my music into digital form in a simple affordable way that will sound decent enough. Thanks. The feedback has been great so far! I appreciate it.

Posted by: Dadoo Sat 17 Jan 2004, 19:58

Funny thing about Tracktion. I found the website and looked at all the features. Then when I checked the "requirements" it only named Windows systems. So, unless someone knows of a Mac version of that, it would not be an option.

Posted by: Sonne Sun 18 Jan 2004, 14:09

hi
You should check out ProTools

Posted by: jpschmader Sun 18 Jan 2004, 18:24

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/downloads/

Posted by: Dadoo Sun 18 Jan 2004, 23:53

Thanks for the link to the Tracktion website. I guess I didn't dig deep enough in it. All I saw were windows requirements. Thank you!

Posted by: Dadoo Sun 25 Jan 2004, 02:55

Okay. A quick poll for anyone interested in offering their advice for a good choice for a newbie like me. After reading all the responses to my topic, I have ruled out Cubasis VST and Pro Tools Free since they are made for OS 9 (or will run only in Classic mode in OS X). I have also ruled out GarageBand for now since much of the iLife 04 suite is not usable by me (no DVD player or burner) and many features of GarageBand require more than my G3 iMac 600 MHz with 512 MB of RAM. So, as far as I can see, for me, for multi-track recording, I am down to the following choices:

Jasmine OS X 1.7.4 $29.95 US (Shareware)
Metro 6 SE $70 US (Commercial)
Metro LX (new, product,price unknown)
Intuem 2.1 $79 US (Commercial)
Tracktion $80 US

Which one would you vote for?

Thank you!

Posted by: jpschmader Sun 25 Jan 2004, 03:48

tracktion

Posted by: thompsot Sun 25 Jan 2004, 06:54

If you will never need MIDI, then audacity would be good (and I guess Jasmine, but don't know anything about it). But I was playing with the demo of tracktion, and it is really a VERY nice package for the price.

I have also been looking for a sequencer in the intermediate levels of capabilities and price for a basic computer apps in music course at my university, and have been having trouble finding something suitable (tracktion and intuem are not really because interface is so non-standard). I was excited to hear of Apple's news of Logic Express ($299). I think that will be the ticket. Now if it were just in the same price range as FreeStyle, that would be even better.

Tim

Posted by: Dadoo Tue 27 Jan 2004, 00:57

Any other votes?
Thanks!

Posted by: Siddy Tue 27 Jan 2004, 13:49

Another suggestion, here in England there is a kit consisting of Logic Hit Kit (a baby version of Logic - but has 8 audio tracks, 8 virtual instrument tracks and as many MIDI as you want) a manual and a microphone (the mic is cheap...). It is published by a company called Dorling Kindersley (I don't know if it is availiable elsewhere) and sold from their site or from amazon.co.uk and costs 20 pounds sterling (about 30 USD).
I have been using it, and for a light preoram, it is brilliant - but then I had Logic Platinum on OS9, but couldn't afford to upgrade it.

Clive.

Posted by: RGirardi Thu 29 Jan 2004, 20:42

regarding the Logic Hit Kit...
Could you point me to a link please? I was unable to find it on the Amazon site.
-thanks

Posted by: Siddy Thu 29 Jan 2004, 20:55

Hi - I got the name slightly wrong - it is "The Hit Kit" - from Amazon.co.uk it is now £17.50, and the ISBN is 1405302305

Hope this is some help.

Clive

Posted by: Dadoo Fri 30 Jan 2004, 02:02

Thanks for the advice about the Hit Kit. Any other votes for which of the 4 software titles I mentioned you would choose? The contenders again are:

Jasmine
Metro SE or the new LX
Tracktion
Intuem

Posted by: braj Fri 30 Jan 2004, 07:27

I just ordered the Hit Kit from Barnes and Knoble in the US for $27. I'd like to know more about it, anyone? I have GarageBand (it's nice, but limited and a DOG on a 667 Ti), Metro 6 (it's powerful, but there are a bunch of things about it that bug me). I'm thinking about getting Logic Express, so I wanted to see if the UI and basic workflow would work for me. Will the Hit Kit version give me this basic perspective? Also, I don't plan to use any hardware synths (this is only a hobby for my), so I'm wondering if the Hit Kit version may just be a good fit. Can you send out midi to the IAC bus? if so, the 8 internal tracks and additional Midi tracks will likely be enough for my.

Someone, please let me know.

Posted by: Dadoo Mon 2 Feb 2004, 00:55

There does not seem to be too many more replies to this topic so I've created a poll for choosing which of the 4 products I mentioned above would be best for a new home recording studio person. Please feel free to vote for what you think is best!

Posted by: braj Thu 5 Feb 2004, 00:16

I got the Hit Kit and I have to say I was disappointed. Not with the app so much as it's inability to work nicely with other apps. If you try using it with the IAC bus enabled in Panther, it will freeze your system. Not many apps do that these days. And I don't see Logic supporting the Hit Kit either. It's good for the price (in a way) but after that let-down I splurged and bought Tracktion. I'm happy with that decision. The time you save in Tracktion not struggling with the interface (read: Metro) is worth the purchase price.

Posted by: Dadoo Thu 5 Feb 2004, 00:47

Hey braj. Thanks for the tip re: the Hit Kit. It didn't seem to suit what I was looking for so I narrowed down my choices to Jasmine (shareware), Metro SE, Intuem 2.1, and Tracktion 1.5. Did you vote in my poll yet? I have a poll going in the Getting Started section about this. From your comments, I would guess you didn't care much for Metro. I have not tried any of these but Metro looked full of features but more like a stripped down version of the more "professional" versions of Metro and thus, more complicated.

Posted by: braj Thu 5 Feb 2004, 04:21

I actually own Metro and have to say it is powerful and has many features I really like. The only thing is it takes me so long to get everything set up, the interface is very Classic Mac. There are so many menu items and windows. I'm glad I own it as it will continue to be a great toolbox into the future (I really like it's step-entry, drum pattern sequencer, note paintbrush, etc etc etc). It works extremely well if I only use QT instruments to compose Midi that I can use elsewhere. It also can use both AU and VST (Tracktion is VST only). There's plenty to like, and for some it is probably perfect.

But it sucks for editing audio loops. I feels like it is living in the past in that regard, you can't do simple snap-to editing of samples. And setting up aux busses etc is just whacky. I don't want to emulate a hardware setup, I want to use as efficient a software setup as possible. Maybe it's because I have so little free time, but I can't deal with all the manual tweaking it takes to get anything done in Metro (IMO). So It's not that I don't care for it, it just didn't work out as my primary DAW. I'm really going to try and use it as much as possible still, like I said, drum and step sequencing are both good. I just had to find an easier way to deal with software synths and effects. Tracktion does that very well. If I had to only have one though, today I would choose Tracktion.

Posted by: Dadoo Fri 6 Feb 2004, 06:37

With my setup (G3 iMac 600 MHz, 512 MB RAM, OS 10.2.8 Audiophile USB), would the Logic Audio 6 Big Box Bundle be a good choice for a newbie such as me? My concerns are: will it run okay on my system, and will it be so enormously complicated for a newbie like me that I will just get frustrated?

I see the the bundle is quite a good deal and so it does look attractive, price-wise and feature wise. I just do not want overkill or something that will be sluggish on my computer and very very hard to learn. THANKS!!

Posted by: Dadoo Sat 7 Feb 2004, 21:20

If you are reading this topic, then please check out my poll for which of 4 entry level multi-track recording programs would be best for newbies. The Poll includes: Jasmine, Intuem, Tracktion, and Metro 6 SE. Any votes, comments or advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Posted by: braj Sat 7 Feb 2004, 22:33

Of the four in your poll, Tracktion is definitely the most powerful, easiest to use, and has pro-level support (it's being distributed by Mackie with their new mixers). I've tried them all and you should definitely consider it. I'm entirely pleased.

Posted by: braj Sat 7 Feb 2004, 22:37

And Tracktion should run very well on your G3. You can freeze tracks when you start getting bogged down with too many effects if you need, which works beautifully. I've heard of people doing 16+ tracks on 266 G3 Powerbooks without major issues.

Posted by: Dadoo Sat 7 Feb 2004, 23:07

Wow! Thanks braj. Sounds good to me. I appreciate your input.

Posted by: Dadoo Sun 8 Feb 2004, 00:17

In my other Topic, which is actually a poll, Metro 6 SE is ahead so far in votes. Is it really that good? To me it seems to have quite a few features, but looks quite cumbersome to use and is for OS 9 and OS X, and some features work in one and not the other. Tracktion looks easier to use and is made only for OS X. Intuem 2.1 looks easy to use, like Tractkion, seems to have a good interface, and also is able to convert MIDI tracks to audio (which I don't think Metro or Tracktion can do).

Posted by: braj Sun 8 Feb 2004, 01:25

Metro is powerful, but cumbersome, and the SE version is intentionally crippled with limitations (only one software synth besides Soundfonts -or- 3 effects). Traction doesn't have this limitation and is way easier to use.

Intuem has terrible support. I was considering it, but they never responded to several e-mails and there is no user community.

Tracktion has a good community with forums hosted at http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=22&sid=a1545c2d5312ec5f0d7c3ad19385703c. Really, this would be your best choice. The code base is multiplatform, newer than Metro, and the recent relationship with Mackie means it is growing into a real pro app. $80 for the full version compared to $69 for Metro SE's crippleware, or $80 for Intuem's lack of support and deep featureset. Really, there is no reasonable comparison. Tracktion is the best value.

Tracktion can convert Midi to audio (freeze to use later as midi or render to audio). It is much more flexible than Intuem by comparison, which only converts to audio.

I would say this: a lot of Mac users are more familiar with Metro since it has been on the Mac for a long time, so it's no surprise it won in your poll. If I hadn't discovered Tracktion, I would likely agree. What Metro SE is really good for is a GM sequencer, to open .mid files and remix them, or to create tracks specifically for later use in another sequencer or for distributing on the web to be played by Quicktime. There is plenty to like, but if you want to do more than just use GM sounds, it starts to get too complicated for efficient use, IMO. Since it isn't widely used in pro situations, I don't think it is worth investing the time to 'figure out'. IO spent plenty of time on the Metro forums and help files trying to figure out things that are easy as can be in Tracktion.

Posted by: braj Sun 8 Feb 2004, 01:28

Tracktion also has Rewire support, which allows me to use it with Reason with incredible ease. Neither Metro nor Intuem offer this.

Posted by: Dadoo Sun 8 Feb 2004, 02:21

Thanks again, braj. Your comments are quite detailed and are answering a lot of the questions I have.

What does Rewire do (so that I know if I would use it or want to use it in the future)?

Posted by: braj Sun 8 Feb 2004, 02:28

Rewire allows various audio and midi apps to work together, sending audio and midi signals between each other. Reason is a techno-heavy application that is awesome, but you can't record audio. Using Rewire, you can use Reason as a bank of sounds for Tracktion or another Rewire-ready app (most pro apps support this). It works wonderfully and extends the functionality of every app that uses it. I mentioned it because it gives you another avenue of flexibility that Metro and Intuem can't offer.

Posted by: Dadoo Sun 8 Feb 2004, 03:44

Thanks for the explanation braj, although I will admit ignorance to much of what you said. I would guess that I will get "into" a lot of the terminology you are using as I use the program and become more "techno-savvy". Your comment about extending the flexibility is a strong selling point for this entry level software as it allows the user (me!) to grow into and perhaps extend further.

Again, I appreciate your help.

Posted by: Dadoo Wed 11 Feb 2004, 01:13

Hi again braj. I contacted the Tracktion guys about my current system setup with Tracktion. The guy from there sent an e-mail saying he felt it was a bit on the slow side (my system) but he has heard of users with a similar configuration using it.

Posted by: braj Wed 11 Feb 2004, 01:23

The beautiful thing about Tracktion is that you can freeze tracks or render them to audio, so even if your system isn't that fast, you'll likely get the best performance available in comparison to other DAW apps. If you use this feature (which is super-simple) you won't have any performance problems. Even if you do have some clicks or skips here and there when recording (they will probably be minor) they wont be there when you mix down to .aiff anyway.

Really, I was in a similar position as you recently and I bought Metro, GarageBand, and tested out Intuem and I really feel Tracktion offers the best featureset, UI, performance, and price of them all. I hadn't messed about with Midi for 12 years until January, so it's not like I had set ways of doing things. I just looked for the path of least resistance, and Tracktion was it.

Posted by: Dadoo Wed 11 Feb 2004, 02:18

Excellent braj. Your comments are very helpful. Thank you.

Posted by: Dadoo Sun 18 Apr 2004, 20:40

I posted this message in my "poll" but thought it also fit here, for anyone else's benefit.

Well, here's the update on my experience thus far. I downloaded Tracktion (demo) and have found the time to record a short little instrumental piece with an acoustic, electric, and bass. I was able to add effects to the tracks that I wanted and was able to easily adjust the volume of each of the 3 tracks to levels that were complimentary. I was surprised at how quickly a newbie like myself could does this stuff. I have a ton to learn still but so far Tracktion makes it easy. I even learned how to connect my old Yamaha keyboard to my Audiophile USB interface, load a midi file into Tracktion and have it played for my on my keyboard. Probably old hat for many of you, but to me .... amazing!

I did download Intuem (demo) to try it out as well. So far, a big disappointment. Tried to do the midi thing with it and it wouldn't play. It just kept freezing up my computer. And not like just the program freezing up, but its freezing up did it to every other program I tried to open up, so I had to restart my computer (which I rarely have to do in OS 10.2.8). So I'm not impressed with Intuem at all.