Best Setup? Options

[bjurusik]

Alright, I've tried to find answers to my questions in the forums, but I'm still confused. I'm new to computer recording and am unsure as what I need. Currently I have a 17" iMac and a Tascam US-428.
Basically I just want to multitrack with guitar and voice. I've never really used midi, but in the future I may add a midi keyboard. As I understand it, the midi keyboard plays sounds off your computer correct? For example you could chose a grand piano sound set and the notes are controlled by the keyboard. Now when you record a guitar or vocal, it shows up as a waveform. Does midi do the same thing? Say your drum track is midi, is it going to show up in the tracks window below the guitar track? Any suggestions as to what software would work best for me? It has to be reasonably cheap, 300 or less. I've looked at Cubase, Logic, and DP, but they all seem like way to much for what I want to do. Would I be best getting something like ProTools LE? thanks.

[xingu]

There's a good intro/overview article on MIDI here. Happy reading...

As for ProTools LE, nope - not since you have the 428. ProTools LE only runs on Digi hardware. If your budget is $300 or less, I'd strongly suggest something like the Logic Big Box, which runs around $240 or so, or the Steinberg Studio Case - I just saw that on sale for $199 (audioMIDI.com). These give you stripped down versions of Logic and Cubase, respectively, which are pretty powerful in their own right, especially if you're just starting out.

I bought the Big Box and am completely satisfied with it - I mostly do audio work - and with (go figure) a flat panel iMac and a Tascam US-428. So I can tell you that this configuration works. And Logic 6 now features built in conrol surface support for the 428, so it's an added bonus. (I believe Cubase is also set up to support the 428, but not positive with the Studio Case version (SE).)

Take some time and read up on these products at the emagic and steinberg websites to see if they'll be enough to meet your needs. Then let us know if you have any other questions.

Oh yeah - another cheap app is Sagan Technology's Metro SE - around $70 I think (but only 4 audio tracks).

[boze]

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

can't beat that price =)

[bjurusik]

Thanks for the replies and the link to the MIDI info. I think I'm leaning towards getting the Logic Big Box. Just let me review, this will allow me to:

1. Record acoustic, electric and vocals.

2. Suppose I purchase a MIDI keyboard, I can load modules which will allow me to record, say drums, strings, synths, horns, any noise module I have, over my guitar and vocal tracks.

With these USB MIDI keyboards, you can send the MIDI info from the MIDI out or the USB correct? Are there any benefits over one or the other? I'm thinking of getting perhaps the Oxygen 8, but I'm not sure if this will be sufficient. I also play piano and would like to record piano pieces without the hassle of micing up my piano. However, the Oxygen 8 only has 25 keys ... 2 octaves. Do they make sound modules that mimic a full size piano and would I be better off spending more money on a midi keyboard with more keys? Also, recomendations for keyboards ... m-audio, edirol? Thanks.

[xingu]

Yes, you will be able to record acoustic, electric and vocals provided you have a mic.

Purchasing a MIDI keyboard I suppose would be your next step if you don't already own an old synth that has MIDI capabilities. I believe something like the Oxygen 8 would be fine - yeah, MIDI through the 428 or directly via USB. Not sure about the merits of one over the other, except for limited USB ports on the iMac. (especially since the 428 should definitely have a dedicated USB port).

However, if you play piano and plan on recording traditional piano type pieces, you'll probably be best off paying a little extra and getting a full size keyboard to keep things more natural. You'd probably wind up hating the Oxygen, which is more suited to programming beats and very focused parts. Not so sure about which ones are recommended - you might want to search around the Synths forum here.

[boze]

hi bjurusik-
you're questions touch on all the basic hw issues involved in home recording.

i want to say a few things that are just general comments- the specifics can shift from one sort of hw or sw to another.

Okay, so the two types of recording (midi and audio) look like this:

AUDIO:
instrument (guitar/vocal) --> soundcard --> daw sw (Logic etc.)

MIDI:
midi input (keyboard/knob etc.) --> midi interface --> daw sw --> vst instrument (software sampler/synth)

That's straight-forward enough, right? so picture two halves of your setup: a guitar and mic that you record into a soundcard, and a midi kbd that you use to play synths and samplers that are software-based.

generally speaking then, there is a piece of hw you need to buy for every object in each of those chains that comes before 'daw sw'. does that make sense so far?

it's true that some midi controllers don't need a midi interface because they have usb connectivity, so that's one caveat. but the greater truth of the matter is that for most folks there isn't any single piece of hw that covers all their needs.

my needs are similar to yours actually, so let me tell you some of the things i'm considering as a way to sum up.

$500us
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/ua700.html - this is a good call for the audio side of things in principle. i have an amp modeler and it makes tracking guitar fun and easy with no mics and a better than line-in signal. it's an interesting product tailored for guitar/vocal folks who don't already have a soundcard or mixer.

$200 and up..
http://www.edirol.com/products/keyboard.html - the pcr line from edirol is a good choice for midi control because there are a variety of kbd sizes _and more importantly a generic combination of 8 knobs and 8 sliders on each model that can be used to control lots of on-screen parameters withouth much fuss. *the pcr-A30 also includes simple 1/4 audio input, but that in itself is kind of a half-assed solution that wouldn't be a good way to get guita /vocal recording done.

$300
http://korg.com/gear/info.asp?a_prod_no=microkontrol - a nice unit with more kinds of midi input than the Edirol pcr series but with smaller keys that make it a bad choice for folks who can actually play piano.

--

of course, there are a _ton of ways to fit the bill with audio and midi hw purchases. the m-audio o-zone is a nice idea for a cheap starter unit that covers all the basics at once at a fair price.

two sidenotes and then i'm done:
first, i think for vocal people especially it's good to look mainly at soundcards that have some sort of xlr input, preferably with decent mic preamps. being able to plug a real mic that needs phantom power directly into your soundcard pretty much means that if you're tracking one instrument at a time you can avoid a mixer purchase and still get good results. the digi001 is a perfect early example of this sort of approach.

second, it's easy to look too closely at features in soundcards and midi equipment but particularly with soundcards you want to make sure that you get a feel for what ppl think of the drivers for the device and how they work in xp or osx. a product can look like it has everything you need, but if it's not going to run stable with Logic or OSX then you'd be better off with a different soundcard even if it didn't look as good on paper.

[boze]

shucks..

i'm rereading this thread and realizing a didn't read closely enough and spent too much time talking about soundcard issues and you already have one.

all that basic stuff was more referring to your later string of general questions.

i'd recommend one of the larger pcr series from edirol and a soft sampler with a quality piano bank. fatar makes affordable midi pianos if you want weighted keys. the pcr70 from edirol (and all the edirol pcr kbds) are a good choice for daw work because the knobs and sliders are handy ways to make mixing more intuitive. i have two different friends who have pcr30s and they are both satisfied.

[bjurusik]

Awesome, thanks a lot. I really like the looks of the Edirol PC-70. It's inexpensive and I don't really need all the sliders and knobs which come with others. All the parameters that those control anyway can be edited in the software, correct? My music style is similair to Radiohead ... acoustic, electric guitars with strings and pianos in the background kind of stuff.

Just one more question

When I record with my Tascam, my recordings always suffer from latency. For example I'll record a track and when I go to dub another track over it, it is out of sync. I realize this is due to USB, but what is there I can do about it? Just move the overdubbed track back a few millisecs? Thanks guys

[Jimmy Rickson]

If you want to do piano recordings, definitely steer clear the little contoller-type/Oxygen 8 keys. I would try to find a used Kurzwell/Yamaha (even Technics) "digital piano" with WEIGHTED keys. I work with Logic for tech. music, but I also play classical piano. I NEVER find myself using my controller keyboard (a bargain Midiman, M-Audio, 49 key Radium) as a piano. Additionally, when I was using an ASR-10 sampler keyboard, the same. Its like playing a harpsichord only much worse.

If you interested in Logic (which is good), be prepared to read the Manual. And I mean read it like a Bible/Koran etc, page by page and practicing using key commands, draggin techniques, and so gforth. Even the stripped down version is very complex, but very wonderful. Jimmy

[boze]

i'm not the right person to help with a question about usb soundcard latency- i still haven't bought a soundcard for my laptop and my desktop has a motu2408 pci card.

i'm surprised though- if you're only recording one track at a time it ought to be able to play back the other tracks without any problems. what did/does tascam tech support have to say about this problem?

This post has been edited by boze: Mon 27 Oct 2003, 15:16