Midi Routing/effects, Trying out Express for the first time Options

[keybie]

I'm considering Logic Express and have played around with the 30 day demo. I've imported the Garageband demo songs so I can get to know it, and also MIDI files, but without a manual and no prior experience with DAW software I'm stuck and need some help:

1) It seems that you can only use 5 effects per track -is this true?
Someone told me that equalizing/tone controls also counts as effects, so 5 seems very limiting to me.

2) I currently don't have any MIDI interface with my Mac, but thought I'd be able to try out the MIDI capabilities of Logic by having it play Quicktime instruments and/or some sort of soft-synth like Garageband has, but I'm not getting any audio output at all. I assume I have to assign instruments/channels somewhere.
Where/how do I do this?

(I'm on a 1.67GHz PowerBook G4 with MacOS 10.4.9)

This post has been edited by keybie: Mon 9 Apr 2007, 18:20

[gdoubleyou]

Five effects slots will quickly eat up the cpu on a powerbook, you will probably have to feed busses with several tracks, to save cpu, or freeze tracks.

I used a Powerbook for several years, got work done but they are underpowered.

The tracks with the instrument icons are for external midi gear.

What you want is an audio instrument track, then you can select an instrument plug, and the proper outputs.

Use the online help to get an understanding of the different types of tracks in Express.

[keybie]

Five effects slots will quickly eat up the cpu on a powerbook, you will probably have to feed busses with several tracks, to save cpu, or freeze tracks.
I used a Powerbook for several years, got work done but they are underpowered.

Which Powerbook was that? I was told by many people prior to buying mine that a 1.67GHz processor with 1GB or more memory would be a great computer for audio.

So are you saying that Logic Express can only give you 5 effects per track, or can it give more (but in your opinion is of no use for my G4 Powerbook)?

As for the playing of Quicktime (or other software synths) instruments from the MIDI file I've imported...
I've tried to figure it out, but although it all looks OK my Mac still doesn't play any audio.
Here's a screenshot I've just made:


I've selected a track which seems to be active ("Audio 5"), and on the left hand side of the screen it says that Core-audio is selected and the MIDI channel is set at 5. I suppose there's another menu somewhere where I can actually choose the MIDI source and patch. In which case I suppose I can select the same soft-synth that plays MIDI files when double-clicked on the desktop, bringing up Quicktime-player, but within Logic Express of course, right?
Logic Express seems like a very complex piece of software, and the built-in help isn't of much help for first time users, but more suited as a reference manual when you already know the basics in my opinion.

[Jim Hoyland]

In the screenshot you've posted (nice touch btw), the first 8 tracks are audio tracks for the playback of audio files (ie AIFF, WAV, SD2 etc). The next 8 are audio instruments which can be loaded with one of the many synths / samplers that come preloaded with Logic (we'll come back to these). The remainder of the tracks shown are midi tracks which will address an external midi device, assuming you've got one, and that its set up correctly in OSX's Audio/Midi Setup Utility.

To play back your midi files in Logic, the simplest route will be to assign each of the tracks to an Audio Instrument track. Obviously you have only 8 showing on screen at the moment, but you may have more available in your Audio Environment (click on Windows > Environment to see this). Assuming you have more Instrument tracks available, you can change an arrangement track you don't need into one you do by clicking and holding on the track name (e.g. Audio 5 in your window). A menu system will appear where you can select (for example) Audio > Audio Instruments > Audio Instrument 9. Once you have enough Instruments, you can load the soft synth you need by selecting the track in the arrange page and clicking in the top box in the I/O section of the track view (left hand side of the arrange page). A menu will appear showing the various instruments you have available. The EVP88 is a good place to start as this will preload an electric piano setup so you can get some sound from the get go. Repeat for each track as required. Of course you may not need a seperate instrument for each midi track in which case you can assign multiple tracks to the same audio instrument.

Its worth saying that Logic is a "Pro" application, very rich in features, and can take a long time to learn. It may be worth you while to get some training.

This post has been edited by Jim Hoyland: Thu 12 Apr 2007, 10:06

[keybie]

Once you have enough Instruments, you can load the soft synth you need by selecting the track in the arrange page and clicking in the top box in the I/O section of the track view (left hand side of the arrange page). A menu will appear showing the various instruments you have available. The EVP88 is a good place to start as this will preload an electric piano setup so you can get some sound from the get go. Repeat for each track as required. Of course you may not need a seperate instrument for each midi track in which case you can assign multiple tracks to the same audio instrument.



Thanks for taking the time to explain.
I have a feeling things look slightly different here, so let me tell you what I've done and you can correct me where I'm going wrong:

1) After loading the song (an empty document which I've imported a standard MIDI file into) I decide to start with the "piano" track. So I click (and hold) where it says "Audio 6" with a gray background (I assume this is what you mean when referring to the track-name and not the actual track data (which I assume are the green vertical (thick) "lines"/"rectangles" on the right hand side of the screen marked "Trumpet", "piano", Drums" etc).

2) When I click on "Audio 6" a menu with a sub-menu comes up as you've described:

Does that look about right?
As I have no idea what those instrument numbers correspond to I've just used the same instrument numbers as the tracks for now.

3) Hmmmm... I'm getting pretty confused about the next stage: loading the soft-synths.
Let me see.... You must be talking about the "mixer fader" on the bottom left hand side.
If I click on the top of the 3 buttons underneath where it says "I/O" I seem to be able to choose between several different soft-synth devices:


... hey, it's working!!!!
I'm confused about the various instrument groups (mono, stereo, multi-channel) and sub-groups (AU generators, AU instruments and Logic Instruments) and there's no EVP88 to be found (but perhaps that's because it's a demo version and it isn't included).

Well, it looks like I've figured it out anyway, so consider this a "how to" for others who might be stuck

How does Logic Express compare to other DAW applications in the same price range? Does LE "have it all", or are there other applications worth looking into?
It's hard to get this kind of information from the usual Apple stores because they only sell LE.

I also need a MIDI and audio interface so I can hook up the rest of my MIDI gear (keyboards, synth modules etc.). I haven't looked much into that yet, but a 19" rack device with MIDI and audio input/output would be practical and probably be a more long-term investment than the usual table-top "entry level" units, or am I getting it all wrong?
I like to keep my desk clean and uncluttered, so by having rack devices I would have that sorted out.
I'm certainly no pro, but I like to buy quality instead of the very cheapest crap I can get my hands on. On the other hand I don't have unlimited funds available. This is so far just a hobby.
Suggestions?

[Jim Hoyland]

I usually work with Logic Pro so I wasn't sure what instruments were included. You'll get a lot more if you can afford to buy the full version. Glad I was able to get you going though. Some of the sub-groups in the instrument section should be fairly self-explanatory, mono, stereo and multi-channel (Logic can do up to 7.1 if you have a sound card with 8 outputs). The two "AU" sections refer to instruments that are not Logic specific, "A(udio)U(nits)" are Apple's equivalent of VST - sort of. It looks as if you can have up to 32 Audio Instruments so have a play and try out the Garageband instruments too. There are quite a lot of freeware AU instruments and effects out there, I'm sure there are links to these all over this forum.

As far as a rack unit for audio / midi, that's a real can of worms. There's a saying that opinions are like a*******s - everybody's got one, and everybody's got an opinion on this. Where I work we use Digidesign 002s which have 8 audio in and out, 1 midi in and 2 midi outs, but thats because we use ProTools LE which requires a Digi interface. M-Audio make a wide range of not too expensive audio/midi interfaces, some with control surface capability. And then there's MOTU, RME, Presonus, Mackie, Focusrite, Lexicon etc, etc, etc.

If money isn't an issue I'd advise having a look at the Apogee Ensemble for audio and one of the MOTU midi interfaces (the AV Timepiece is really good).

Hopefully you've got a good music store nearby where you can try some of these out. And of course you should take a look at other threads in this forum to see what other people like using.

[keybie]

Nice to hear from you again, and thanks to you I've been playing around with the demo (a week left till it expires). Yes, I do plan to get the full version (or the full version of some sort of DAW software).
I really have no prior experience with this kind of software and don't want to get the "wrong" piece of software if something else is better. I know there's Steinberg Cubase, Digidesign ProTools, MOTU Digital performer, Mackie Tracktion etc.
Any thoughts on this?

As for the mono/stereo/multi-channel thing... I feel a bit stupid asking, but it's not self-explanatory to me. Does it have to do with polyphony where "mono" means a monophonic soft-synth (the equivalent of a MiniMoog etc.)? If that were the case then "stereo" and "multi-channel" doesn't make sense (unless Apple has their own way of naming things. I would call it "polyphonic" and "multi-timbral", but perhaps it's all something entirely different.

I'll look around in the forum for links to AU soft-synths. So far I only have one installed which is the "Crystal" synth. I can't quite figure it out though and find it frustrating that the sequencer always changes the patch I've chosen. I tried it in Garageband and the same thing happens with the Logic Express demo. I haven't found any way to disable program change, and without a MIDI interface I can't audit it with my MIDI keyboards either.

Regarding Garageband instruments. I only get a short list of available patches (sounds), but for all I know this might be a limitation in the demo (I hope so).


Audio/MIDI interfaces... yes, I've found a bunch myself by searching the web in different price-ranges. I could also buy a second hand one of course, if people sell these things that is.
I believe I've heard something about ProTools using their own specific interfaces while other software applications aren't so picky. What's Logic Express like when it comes to interfaces? Does it work with just about anything? Since I have Firewire 400/800 on my Powerbook I'll probably go for one with that interface. USB is too slow I've heard.
I have no idea how many inputs/outputs I need, but having a 24 channel sub-mixer and a bunch of hardware MIDI synths/samplers and effects I probably need more than 2. I would for example like to record the audio from an external drum machine on separate tracks so I can pan them all differently, have different effects and so on.
I don't know how the pros do this, but I assume they have audio interfaces with many channels where they route the outputs of their drum machines etc. into and record it all in one go, like in the old days with a 24 track tape recorder. Correct me if I'm wrong or you have some better suggestions.

I prefer asking around in forums such as these instead of going to stores. At least to begin with. Most places don't care about helping out their customers in my experience. They just want to make an extra buck out of your ignorance. I'd like to be a little better prepared before going to the store instead of being (more or less) clueless as I feel I am at the moment.

[Jim Hoyland]

Sorry for the delay in replying, been a little snowed under at work.

The "mono / stereo / multi-channel" thing in Logic refers to the number of discreet outputs used by the audio channel / instrument. So a mono instrument only requires a single channel, stereo needs two and multi-channel will require as many as have been pre-defined in a session's multi-channel set-up (usually 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 - that is the number of "full-range" channels plus a sub-woofer). It can get a bit confusing, but basically Logic's synths are mono-timbral and polyphonic, in that they can only play one patch at a time but allow several notes to be simultaneously played.

In terms of which audio / midi device to get, with the exception of the ProTools / Digidesign hardware requirement the field is pretty open. OSX is fairly open in terms of support for audio devices. You need to check that a device is supported by "Core Audio" which will allow communication between the operating system and the device. As you are using a PowerBook you are restricted to USB / FW devices and as a rule I would recommend sticking with FW as the constant data rate is far superior to USB (even USB 2).

Most of the devices in this bracket come with 8 ins and 8 outs, and many support expansion either thru daisy-chaining FW or by connecting other hardware digitally ( for example, many have optical "light-pipe" connections which would allow you to use an Alesis ADAT or similar to provide an additional 8 ins and outs). If your mixer has group outputs, you will be able to connect these to the Audio ins, allowing you to send any channel(s) from your mixer to any input. Whilst in theory you'll need 8 channels to connect the outputs from your audio device, in practice many (most?) people work with only a pair of outputs connected and do all their mixing within their software.

I'm going to stick my neck out and recommend that you stick with Logic, mainly because its owned by Apple and will therefore always work closely with the capabilities of your computer. In a similar vein I'd recommend that you look at the Apogee Ensemble as an Audio interface. Apogee have been working very closely with Apple on the development of both this and the Symphony system so they tie-in very nicely with both Logic and OSX. It isn't the cheapest (by a long way - £1,300!), but you also get some really sweet Apogee convertors.

For a midi interface the most important question is how many devices you need to connect. If you only want to use one keyboard as a master controller then you only really need a couple of midi inputs (it's best to have a spare in case someone turns up with some midi drum triggers or a guitar synth). You'll also need as many midi outs as you have midi devices. That said, most rack units support 8 ins and outs and they don't cost the earth. They're all pretty reliable too. I've used Unitors, AMT8s, Opcodes and MOTU units and never had any break down. The only consideration is whether you're likely to need to synchronise to something like a 24 track reel-to-reel tape machine or a pro-level video player in which case you'll need something with SMPTE, wordclock, video genlock etc. The MOTU Midi Timepiece AV is perfect for this (but expensive - £520!). Otherwise something like the MOTU midi express (£130) will be dandy.

To quickly go back to the top of this thread, your PowerBook is a really sweet machine and will be able to handle a lot of fairly complex audio tasks for a good time to come. However, as software becomes more powerful and demanding you may find it begins to creak a bit. The full version of Logic comes with a really nice reverb plug-in (Space Designer). When that came out we were forced to upgrade our single processor G4s (1st generation 450mHz) to G5s as they just couldn't cope with the additional processing. We now have a mix of MacPros and G5s that cope really well, although sometimes we need to encourage our students not to put a seperate reverb on every single track. The current range of iMacs are also very powerful and are proving popular with our students when setting up home studios. I guess what I'm trying to say is that software is always going to push the abilities of hardware, and, unless you can afford to constantly upgrade to the very latest piece of kit, you need to find a system that does what you need and stick with it, trying not to feel too envious of someone who can run 256 instances of Sculpture, render his latest home movie to DVD and carry-on a three way iChat conversation simultaneously.

This post has been edited by Jim Hoyland: Sun 15 Apr 2007, 12:35

[keybie]

As always your replies prove informative and useful.

You raise several good points. I will have to look further into the MIDI and audio interfaces for a good solution with my existing equipment.
My mixer is a Roland M-480 rack line-mixer. I bought it not so long ago and haven't really had a chance to get to know it. I haven't found any good spec sites on the web, but this eBay page lists its specs and features. The user manual can be found here.
Does it look like something that could work well with Logic and an audio interface of some kind?

For the time being I have a very well functioning external MIDI sequencer, so I'll use that for now, but sync to Logic's own MIDI sequencer. That way I can use its soft-synths together with my external MIDI gear. I'm pretty happy with my MIDI keyboard synths and modules, so any soft-synths would be used because I need specific sounds I can't make with my other gear, not as replacements for them.
That's a good thing of course, because then I can use the Powerbook's power (no pun intended) for effects, EQ and so on.
Having a rack-sampler that only takes floppy disks I can however see a real benefit using a soft-sampler. I wouldn't have to spend forever loading things from floppy and struggle with limited memory, and I could probably (I hope) route say a drum kit with the different drums to separate tracks so as to treat them differently (EQ, reverb, panning etc.). That would also eliminate a lot of recording passes if I don't have that many audio inputs in my audio interface for Logic express.

I believe Logic express even comes with a soft-sampler. Is it any good?

back to the audio interface. I don't have a 24 track recorder (and probably never will), neither do I have any sophisticated audio gear, but since my external MIDI sequencer (Notator SL running on an Atari ST) doesn't support MTC, but does have SMPTE together with a "Unitor 2" hardware device I might be able to use SMPTE instead and will need support for this in the audio interface.

Having listed up all of this, am I getting closer to a usable setup for a home recording studio?