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Posted by: keybie Tue 20 Mar 2007, 15:44

I'd like to get started "tape style" editing on my Mac, but so far haven't found much software for this kind of thing.
By editing I'm thinking about the same sort of thing people back in the days used to do with reel-to-reel recordings, splicing tape, repeating small bits and pieces etc. You'd often hear it in 80s "Freestyle" music.

Anyway, I've understood that what I need is software that allows you to divide the song file into sections, or a grid, so as to easier divide the sections you want to edit.
I've found one application which does this called http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://audiofile-engineering.com/wave_editor.php, but it costs US$ 250 and seems very advanced and complex, so I was wondering if there is other software available which will do the same sort of thing?

I'm also considering buying Logic express, for multi-track recording my own music, but I suppose it doesn't handle the above kind of editing as well, does it?

Posted by: lepetitmartien Wed 21 Mar 2007, 03:06

If you need only audio editing at a low price you can't beat Audacity, it's free. If you want something more uptight while very easy to use and the tape op in mind, I'd look into the Pro tools direction, but you need to buy either an M-audio interface with the M-powered version of pro tools, or eying the entry level M-box to access PT LE. There's also Ardour which is free.

http://www.macmusic.org/software/cat.php/lang/en/id/7000/ and http://www.macmusic.org/software/cat.php/lang/en/id/7014/ (includes links to the above mentionned), there may be other choices I'm not aware of now

Posted by: Jim Hoyland Wed 21 Mar 2007, 09:43

If you're planning to buy Logic anyway, rest assured that it can do all of the audio editing you need and then some. However, if you're not so interested in working with midi and softsynths you'll probably get on better with protools.

Posted by: jimdubpram Wed 21 Mar 2007, 13:59

If you have a Mac why not try Garageband, it does all the things you mention.

Posted by: keybie Thu 12 Apr 2007, 20:59

I think there's been some misunderstanding in what I'm looking for.

My aim is to edit in a similar fashion to the "machine gun" style tape-editing that The Latin Rascals, Omar Santana, Chep Nunez etc became famous for in the 80s.
They edited songs with surgical precision by cutting a splicing bits of tape from various sections of a song, the end result a masterpiece without missing a beat.

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/audio_snippets/edits/I_feel_for_you_edit.mp3. It's a little extreme as there's nothing but edits in there, but at least you'll get the idea what it's all about

PC owners do the same with Zero-X Beatcreator, Sony Soundforge, Sony acid pro and similar software. Unfortunately I haven't met anyone into this kind of editing on a Mac, but what I do know is that I need some sort of "grid" division where I can shift small sections around. The "grid" is of a way of dividing the song in relation to the beat.
Audacity and other "normal" audio editors aren't made for this sort of editing where you do everything in relation to the beat, unless someone can prove me wrong.

Any idea for a suitable tool on the Mac platform to do this?

Posted by: DANO10 Fri 13 Apr 2007, 14:43

Keybie

Take a look at PEAK PRO. It will do what you describe. So will the edit window of most DAWs like ProTools, Logic and Digital Performer.

DANO10

Posted by: monkeyboy23 Fri 13 Apr 2007, 15:37

Any of the packages mentioned can do what you want once you learn to use them.

Posted by: keybie Sat 14 Apr 2007, 14:54

Peak pro seems a little expensive.
As for Logic I'm contemplating getting Logic Express as I need a DAW package for recording my own music. I'm currently playing around with the demo and tried to figure out if there were any suitable tools for edit-mixing there. Couldn't find anything special.
Are you referring to Logic Pro?

What tools/options (in the editing applications) specifically should I be looking for to edit this way?

Posted by: DANO10 Sun 15 Apr 2007, 15:23

Hello Kebie,

Actually I use Digital Performer. Here's what you do. In the EDIT window of your DAW; (1) select a short piece of audio; (2) go to the edit pull down menu thats on that same EDIT window and hit COPY; (3) that short piece of audio has been copied into your copy buffer. Now, where ever you put your cursor and you hit paste from the edit menue, that short piece of audio will be pasted (copied) to an audo track. To get the "stuttering effect" paste several copies one after the other. Check out COPY AND PASTE in yout manual.

If money is problem, that a look at METRO from Sagan and TRACKTION from Mackie - both very good programs.

Hope this helps,

DANO10

Posted by: banevt Tue 17 Apr 2007, 09:31

Yeah any of the software mentioned here can do what you are referring to it's just learning the way to do it. Most of them have a "grid" function that is at the tempo of the song you're recording but you can cut, copy or paste anywhere you need to outside of the "grid" just the same way they cut, copied and pasted tape loops. What is a helpful function in pro tools is something called "tab to transient" which moves your cusor to the beginning of a transient or beat like a kick or snare. From there it's really easy to cut a piece and paste it on a transient where you want your copied piece to be.

Posted by: keybie Tue 17 Apr 2007, 13:16

This is the kind of editing I've done for years with even free software like Sound effects and Audacity (not editing songs, but audio samples, speeches etc.).
Although editing music this way can be done you can imagine just how complicated it must be when making perhaps hundreds of tiny edits in a song, keeping track of:

a) the exact location where the clip is copied from
b) the exact length of the clip you copied
c) the exact location where you will paste the new clip
d) finding another exact location in the song to extract (with the exact same length as the section you pasted somewhere else), so as to make room for the new clip without "shifting" the rhythm flow.

Yes, I'm sure it can be done (after all, the pioneers of this art-form used 1/4" tape, cutting, splicing and shifting bits around. I'm sure they must have measured (literally, with a ruler) how long a section of say 1 bar would be, then divide it to get the length of the section they wanted to copy/paste etc.).
Just listen to the example MP3 clip I posted earlier and you'll hear just how complex a "multi-edit" or "machine-gun edit" can be.

I was hoping for a better tool for this task than a "normal" audio editor (as in a tool for trimming audio samples, removing or shifting around parts of a speech, normalizing an audio file or adding effects etc.), which in the end is quite different from cut/paste of "stand alone" audio, where it doesn't matter if you "shift" the audio in front or behind the section you're working on around.

Are there any Mac users here who does this kind of multi-editing?

Posted by: keybie Tue 17 Apr 2007, 13:35

That sounds useful if it works, because wouldn't relying on transients be unreliable as the software could mistake another sound than the kick or snare to be a part of the actual beat?
Perhaps there's a way you can manually define where say a 1 bar 4/4 beat starts and ends (i.e. a perfect 1 bar rhythm loop), then tell the software to duplicate this definition throughout the rest of the song.
If the song has a steady beat (e.g. a drum machine) that should work fine. Otherwise the measurement definition could be repeated only for a certain part of the song, then re-defined. This is just an idea I have in my head and there might be other, better ways of doing it.

But getting back to ProTools which you talk about, once the "tab to transient" function has been turned on, can you then choose how high resolution that "grid" or "ruler" will have (so you can see bigger or smaller parts of a beat) and then select a "block" of audio instead of carefully aiming the mouse to get at that precise section of audio?
Now THAT would be a helpful tool: If I could divide the whole song up into perfectly correctly length sections according to the beat, then just shift and/or copy them around as I like

Does ProTools have an advantage over other software applications (such as Logic Express which I'm wondering if I should get), or do all major DAW applications allow for this sort of thing?