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Posted by: soon2be Thu 29 Jul 2004, 22:02

I'm very interested in making music but right now live sound is more important for me to know. And even though Im learning the baby of basics when it comes to making music and sounds on the computer I want to be able to focus more on live performances. So I need to be able to bounce some simple questions and have them anwered in simple terms.

What (to you, the answerer) is the most important quality in a live sound engineer? What is the first thing I need to focus on?

I know things here and there from listening and watching but I dont have a starting point, so therefor I dont know which way is up. I dont know if there is a way up really because the more you know the better huh?

Posted by: boilerblues Fri 30 Jul 2004, 12:27

The most important thing is your ear. You have to train your ear to know what sounds good, what doesn't, and if it doesn't what needs to change. You have to develop the ability to listen to a band and sort out each instrument and know what adjustments need to be made to make it sound like you think it should sound like. You also have to be able to hear what an overall mix should sound like, not just for your own preference but for the audience and the band you are running sound for. I've been running sound at church for a few years now, I've learned a lot. Anyone can learn the equipment, it's not as complicated as it looks. The hard part is training your ear to know what it should sound like and how to adjust things to sound like that. I'm sitll working on that. The same thing transfers over to recording.

Posted by: soon2be Tue 3 Aug 2004, 05:36

Thank you for the tips.
Anybody else?
Anything. Any information for me to know, the better.

Posted by: soon2be Tue 3 Aug 2004, 05:38

Can anyone also point me in the direction of basic troubleshooting tips? Equipment-wise. Any trouble shooting would be helpful. Any info? or websites?

Posted by: tunetwister Wed 4 Aug 2004, 07:55

On doing sound yes your ears are the most importent thing. You also must understand gain structure and E.Q.ing.
When something gose wrong with the equipment you need to know where to look first and fix it fast. Most problems are operator error, then bad cords, ground faults ect. You need to learn to isolate the offending equipment, by looking at your system as a hole and as smaller parts, anything is simple when broken into smaller parts. Best to keep extra cords around you will most likely not have time to fix them at a gig.

Posted by: soon2be Fri 6 Aug 2004, 06:05

Ive definately run into that a few times. Cord faults ect... but do you know of any thing I can do to get my hands on some sort of "something" like a website or manual or something that helps break down "How To's", or help break down isolating?

Posted by: tunetwister Fri 6 Aug 2004, 08:39

I do not know of one book that will tell you every thing. I went to collage for electronics and that helped me with the hardware side.
The biggest thing is to learn are the paths for your signal, this way you will know where to look. Test the signal path to see where the signal stops or becomes a problem. Also make sure you understand your gain structure. Basicaly you do not want to turn one thing way up to have to turn another thing down. If you can run everything at norminal that is best, you will get the most headroom and the cleanest signal path this way. Some times adjustments have to be made allthough. Most distortion comes from bad gain structure or eq.ing.
Chasing down ground faults is a bit of a job, if you use ballenced outs and ins it cuts them down alot. You have to try to isolate the offending component to find it. some times the fix is as easy as turning a power plug around in the outlet. Good power conditioners can help also.

Posted by: boilerblues Fri 6 Aug 2004, 13:35

Read the manuals on your equipment, that's the best way to find a problem. If you don't know the gear and how things are routed then "Live Sound For Dummies" won't help much. If you go to Guitar Center or look through amazon.com you'll find some live sound books, but I think most of the learning comes from reading the manuals, working next to someone who knows what they are doing, and doing it.

Posted by: tunetwister Mon 9 Aug 2004, 07:50

Yes read the manuals and anything else. The tearms used alot is RTFM.
It also helps to read about electronics. you want to understand impedence, ohms law, and how to trouble shoot at least simple things.

Posted by: Meganini Tue 10 Aug 2004, 04:33

Meganini [/QUOTE]
What (to you, the answerer) is the most important quality in a live sound engineer? What is the first thing I need to focus on?

I know things here and there from listening and watching but I dont have a starting point, so therefor I dont know which way is up. I dont know if there is a way up really because the more you know the better huh?

OK Soon2Be,

This is Meganini.

I have about 25 years experience in audio engineering, live and studio (recording). Now, listen that does not makes me a god of audio, but I do know my fair share.

Your ears, are very important. But most important if you have to do the sound live for a band, make sure you can go to their practices. Don't forget to bring a pair of ear plugs. Some guys even in practice play really loud. This you must do if you want to know their sound. Just sit in a corner and listen to them, don't interviene in anything, let them be themselves.

Try to know your microphones. If the singer insist to use a certain mike because its the mike that fits his voice better, then believe him, at least for the first time and try it.

If everything is miked with SM-57 and SM-58 you won't have much trouble. Its bottom line but you'll get a good sound very close to "their sound" in no time.

Refuse to mix on a Yamaha mixer, they're the shit!

If you want to avoid cable problems as in "suddently faulty cables" just learn how to roll them properly, and explain to the band leader that you're the one that takes care of this. Speaker cables are rolled a certain way, while shielded cables are rolled differently.

I could type on and on until 5:00 a.m. here, but Soon2be be confident in yourself, but not overconfident. Set and wire the P.A. system yourself, that way you will not have to face disappointment from newbies who don't know what they do, or from jealous people (yes, grasshopper, in music there are a lot of those people)

One secret from the ol' pro. On the mixer don't play with the volume like crazy, you're not a D.J., you're a soundman. If the tune they play sounds just fine, then adjust nothing. That's your job

Meganini

Posted by: Robbins Egg Wed 11 Aug 2004, 17:51

From personal experience I can tell you, that if you don't have formal training in audio engineering, you should find a way to do it.
And the best way to learn live sound, troubleshooting, etc. is to find a gig with a sound reinforcement company if possible and learn from the bottom up. That's how I learned. I started in the shop repairing, went on the road as a sound roadie, eventually got opportunities to mix monitors, then house mixing for the opening bands, which lead to having opportunities to go on a tour mixing for the headliner. It's usually apprenticeship that results in opportunity, and the lessons you learn along the way will keep you in good stead forever
The only thing else you need is to find the way to survive the road torture and not burn out!

Posted by: Presto Sat 14 Aug 2004, 12:47

If you have to record a band so they can show what they do to possible clients (ow), record the sound the audience hears: just two good microphones to get stereo - not multi-mono. Use an old barn or somewhere with good acoustics (be ready to redo if a tractor goes by, although eternally loud groups can ignore outside interference) also get an audience to give them the jitters. Record them practising first, giving advice on which way to turn the various volume knobs on their amps. Avoid recording studios unless you've got lots of money - they should use quite a bunch of very good and well-placed mics and lots of other stuff including good plug-ins to compensate the dead sound of the studio. In any case multi-mono recording will not be the sound the band makes on stage.

Oh, if the drummer's too loud, loose him somewhere before the recording or get the group to buy louder amps so they can compete with him on stage
Even if you did the best recording ever for free and got a big label to take them on, it's almost sure the group would make less money in a year than if one of them worked for a hambuger place for a week.

Oh, get headphones that keep the loud sound out of your ears. Just listen to the sound that you get from the mics at a reasonable level, that way you'll keep whatever hearing you've got left. Don't go to discos.

Keep the phones on but play your recording back for them through loud, very loud speakers. However if you're recording for people who love the delicacies of sound, life will be alot easier.

PS I'm not a sound engineer so take this as a poor amateur's comment.

Posted by: Presto Sat 14 Aug 2004, 13:35

Oh, I forgot. Try this:

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.studiobuddy.com/txi/

Posted by: arnolfo Sat 14 Aug 2004, 17:54

Buy the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook! It will provide you with all the answers you'll need as you grow curious with what you're doing. You'll find it in Amazon.

Posted by: TKO Thu 23 Nov 2006, 10:04

Yeah, your ears are definitely your most valuable equipment. I feel it´s very important to get familiar with how various instruments sound an acoustic environment WITHOUT ANY REINFORCEMENT. This should be your reference point when starting to amplify things. When these instruments are brought to a venue, you should get a feel for room acoustics and how the room alters the sound. I can´t emphasize MIC CHOICE & PLACEMENT enough, it´s amazing what moving a mic an inch does to the sound it hears. Do a lot of experimenting in this area. One more important thing: There are lots of different musical styles out there. Listen to a lot of different music on records and go to all kinds of different gigs, as an engineer you might get thrown anything from ethnic acoustic bands to death metal and you need to understand how various musical styles should sound to the audience. Be true to the source!

Posted by: genehardage Tue 5 Dec 2006, 01:01

The most important thing in every mix is the VOCAL.

Keep them out front above everything else and DON'T MUTE THEM just because the stage volume is loud. "Professional" sound companies do this to us and often forget or miss the first few words of the next verse in an effort to clean up the mix. It's not a crime to have the guitar amps not in the house mix if they're too loud - or anything else for that matter. Resist the temptation to twidle knobs and cause feedback - once you get it sounding good try to leave it alone.

Posted by: Audioaxe Wed 17 Jan 2007, 04:55

Sorry but i dont agree with this statement at all ........................Meganini [/QUOTE]

Refuse to mix on a Yamaha mixer, they're the shit!

There is nothing wrong with Yamaha consoles infact the DM5 is almost an industry standard, years ago the only desks you ever wanted were the PM 2000 or a midas Pro series

Posted by: TKO Thu 25 Jan 2007, 10:48

[quote name='Audioaxe' date='Wed 17 Jan 2007, 05:55' post='225591']
Sorry but i dont agree with this statement at all ........................Meganini [/QUOTE]

Refuse to mix on a Yamaha mixer, they're the shit!

There is nothing wrong with Yamaha consoles infact the DM5 is almost an industry standard, years ago the only desks you ever wanted were the PM 2000 or a midas Pro series
[/quote]

What is this? Everyone might have their own preferences when it comes to mixing consoles and most of the time you get what you pay for but if your P. A. is tuned correctly, you got decent amps and loudspeakers and your mics are right you can mix on almost any f- king console, if you can´t, well... maybe you´re just a snob.

Posted by: AudioTechNews Fri 25 Jan 2008, 16:39

[quote name='TKO' date='Thu 25 Jan 2007, 11:48' post='226647']
[quote name='Audioaxe' date='Wed 17 Jan 2007, 05:55' post='225591']
Sorry but i dont agree with this statement at all ........................Meganini [/QUOTE]

Refuse to mix on a Yamaha mixer, they're the shit!

There is nothing wrong with Yamaha consoles infact the DM5 is almost an industry standard, years ago the only desks you ever wanted were the PM 2000 or a midas Pro series
[/quote]

What is this? Everyone might have their own preferences when it comes to mixing consoles and most of the time you get what you pay for but if your P. A. is tuned correctly, you got decent amps and loudspeakers and your mics are right you can mix on almost any f- king console, if you can´t, well... maybe you´re just a snob.
[/quote]


I've been lucky enough to mix on (arguably) some of the best consoles around at the moment, both analogue and digital.

I love them, and it's great, but I would get a very similar sound if I was using a basic Soundcraft.

There is no main aspect to get right, rather a combination. You will find preferences, and if you have the sway, it's best to use it so you don't get lumbered with equipment you find lacking.

Best thing I can suggest is that once you're on the job, get there early, give yourself plenty of time to set up, test, EQ FoH, rinse the monitors from feedback as best as possible and lay your mics and cables in an organised, neat way so they're easy to swap if you need to (and pack up at the end of the night!).

*If you regularly work in a club and you're not the main sound guy, don't mess with the EQ!

You'll make mistakes, everyone does. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Use your ears, and trust them. It takes a bit of time, experience and trial and error to get it right.

Respect those who have been doing it for longer, and ask them questions if you need to. They shouldn't mind too much at all.

Try to stay on the ball. Use your head. If something goes wrong, trace the line from the source (microphone/stage end) to the desk.

So is it the

Mic
XLR lead
Input stage end
Input desk end
Something on the desk.

Depending on the situation, and whats happening, you'll know which course to follow.

ALWAYS MUTE A CHANNEL IF YOU'RE TESTING IT!

Before you leave the desk to go and sort out something that doesn't work - mute the channel it's on. You should be able to see if there's something coming into the desk on the pre fade limiter (PFL), or 'solo' meter.

Don't panic.

If it's all going to shit, take a breath. Think about it.

My advice is get some experience, make your mistakes and read books if you want to when you're not on the job.

Apply what you've learned next time you have the chance. Make sure you get the chance. Don't start taking guide books to work, it looks amateur.

Be diplomatic.

Have fun. If you're not having fun, there are better ways of earning money. Even the best paid sound jobs are hard work, and take up loads of time, are often boring and unsociable.

Don't drink on the job.

Hope that helps a bit..

Chris

Posted by: Mac Daddy Sat 26 Jan 2008, 15:02

AudioTechNews....... Wow... This is "Heavy Weight Championship Stuff"

Posted by: AudioTechNews Sat 26 Jan 2008, 18:01

Glad you approve Mac Daddy. Glad you approve..