Writing For The Real Orchestra, should I study Logic SCORE or books..... Options

[tokyoroland]

In the not-to-distant future, I may have the opportunity to score a film using a real orchestra. Now, I took a theory class at my junior college last semester, and I know the basics, but when it comes to writiing for the real thing, I am completely new.

My question is, should I rely on the comprehensive SCORE section of Logic platinum to automatically write it FOR me, just paying attention to recording... provided that I learn the whole SCORE section first, so I can detect errors...

Or should I go the traditional way, and read books on HOW to write for the orchestra, all of the different instruments.. because I dont know...if I give a printed score from Logic, will the orchestra play it different than I envisioned? Will I sound completely different, even if, in the future, I am using superb software instruments like Vienna and Spectrasonics?

All advice is welcome!



- jeffro

[formatj]

You are going to definitely have to read books on orchestration. Try "The study of Orchestration" by Samuel Adler (buy the 5 CD set for it too) or "Orchestration" by W.Piston.

You can use logic's score section to print scores for the orchestra (I have used it for 30-60 piece orchestras) however you are going to have to develop an understandiing about the basics such as the range of instruments and their transpositions to more complex theory such as if you were to expand a score from a piano part to a full orchestra who would you give the notes to, which instruments sound good together in unison or octaves etc.......

Do not rely on logic for the way it sounds with MIDI. Do not expect Logic to fix errors for you in printing the scores. If you give an orchestra a score they will play it as it is shown on the paper so it is essential that you have an understanding in your head about how it should sound and make sure that the printed score shows that.

By understanding orchestration you will also produce better and more realistic MIDI scores.

Buy some printed scores by composers you like and study them while listening to a CD of the work.

[formatj]

Also look at doing a course, you are going to need some feedback!

If there is nothing near you there are online courses such as http://AlexUniv.com/AU/strings.html

There is also a good book on orchestration at their site http://alexanderpublishing.com/orch_princ.html

[StrangeCat]

there is more then a few things you need to do, first listening to orchestration simular to music you need to write and looking at the score is the key. Then you'll need to get a book on a guide to orchestration. Keep in mind that what you write your writing for each individual player, that means knowing the instruments that you are writing for
A conductor might want to go over the score with you as well, because well conductors interpet the scores and get them ready to play for the musicians. I recomend using a program like Sibelius to do the orchestration. That way you have the actual score as it will be for the conductor. Voicing is very important also for groups, close voicing, far voicing etc...it depends on what effect you want to get from an instrument. hey GOod Luck! Ganbaru!
I am new here but this page is going to go in July LOL baka na!

[igor]

learn both because you will need both
Find someone who can help you if it is your first recording

[bach12]

I agree with all the above repsonses.

But, also consider this.....respect from the musicians, engineers, producers, etc.

You should hopefully have everything so well thought out as far as proper scoring, instrument ranges, articulations in various passages, etc. that the recording will go very smoothly with a minimum of stops and starts. Hopefully you'll be using good musicians who'll have the ability to read your music and interpret it very quickly with a minimum of questions.

Otherwise, you'll be wasting everybody's time.... which equals money in a recording situation.

That's why the big film producers use the composers who know their stuff cold when it comes to big orchestral situations (ie: John Williams, James Horner, the Newman brothers, Elliot Goldenthal, Alan Silvestri, etc. etc.) These composers know their craft....the recording musicians and engineers can have full confidence that the sessions will go smoothly......and most importantly, everyone can focus on the music.

We all have to know as much as we can about everything....the more we know, the more we realize that we have a hell of a lot more to know.

Please, please, please....don't rely on a piece of software (even if it's Sibelius's or Finale's arrange function) to write your music. Do you really want to sound like everybody else in the world?

Understand what real instruments can or can't do, and get creative. Listen to some scores by Goldsmith, Horner, etc. to know what real instruments are capable of. Listen to the score from the old film 'Altered States' with music by John Corigliano.
It's amazing to hear what he did using no synths at all .....it's all orchestra! Unbelievable! (Check out all the great composers!)

Hey.....I could go on and on! Good luck to you! If you've got a gig to actually be able to score with live musicians these days, we're all very envious of you!

Good luck!

Cam

[Artist]

As far as getting excellent scoring (so the performers aren't going, why the hell did he notate it like this, urgh. damnit. - and messing up because of it) I'd use sibelius.
It's very good for helping you to notate your pieces properly.
It will also tell you the limits of each instrument, e.g. the notes will be red if they are too low for a flute to play, brown if they are difficult to play (no hemi semi quavers at 220 bpm thank you very much).

You can write the piece in logic.
Export as a midi file.
Import in Sibelius.
Fix all small problems created between importing/exporting, so that your sibelius version sounds like the logic version.
Sibelius' scores are far superior to Logic's.

This post has been edited by Artist: Tue 2 Mar 2004, 20:57

[jesshmusic]

Orchestration is an art fine-tuned over many years. There is no right and no wrong, but one definately needs to know all of the instruments different capabilities as well as ranges. For instance a violin or flute can play a higher note in its range pianissimo, but a trumpet will be at least mezzoforte in its upper range. Strings alone have so many different sounds and characteristics, it can get very complex very quickly. One should be very careful about accepting a job and getting in way over your head. Some of these people can be very rude and really dog you if you give them a poor product. I am sure you are a wonderful composer, but my own music composition professor started me off with music for individual instruments, string quartets, and small ensemble music before I even thought about orchestra. I also took orchestration in college. There are just so many things that one needs to know at the drop of a hat to do it well. The books suggested in an earlier post are very good. That is a good way to go. I would also suggest books by the masters: i.e. Rimsky-Korsakov and Henry Mancini have excellent books.
See if you can take individual composition lessons from a good composer. They will help you a lot.

BTW All major music publishing companies use Finale. I don't know where the whole 'Sibelius' thing came on, but to me the two don't even compare. That is an unsolicited opinion.

I don't want to discourage you. You can do anything you set your mind to. I just recommend highly studying long and hard before attempting to do it for money. Compositionally the best method is to write the music into the scoring software(Finale or Sibelius), then export to MIDI. YOu will get a better composition by this method becuase you can see the counterpoint you are working on.

Jess Hendricks
Composer & Arranger ASCAP

[dougdell]

One other thing - a hundred could be written about the pitfalls of writing for orchestra, but this jumped to mind immediately for me - if you haven't had some training or experience, articulations are going to bite you. Things like up or down bow, pizz & arco and many other bowing techniques (like spiccato) for the strings, falls and flutter tonguing for winds, mutes for brass, slurs and grace notes and dynamic things like sfortzandi. Writing for orchestral percussion is non-intuitive for someone who has come up through the keyboard or guitar ranks - ruffs and flams and drags and various kinds of rolls are not in our vocabulary.

Forgive me if you've already got a pretty good idea of all this stuff. Writing for orchestra certainly has the potential to be an exciting experience from which you'll learn a lot. Do as much preparation as you can, though. Invaluable for you will be to find some scores, especially for a style close to what you might be doing, and read through them multiple times while listening to the music. Learning from others that way is one of the best ways to get a handle on the magnitude of your challenge - and you'll get lots of ideas on how to fit things together (unison here, countermelody in the low strings, solo woodwinds there, etc.).

Read, read, read. I personally like the Mancini book (with the CD full of examples), and I use the orchestration books by Kennan and Piston. Alfred Publishing has a nice little pocket reference that is handy for looking up instrument ranges, considerations, and tips.

Good luck & have fun!

[tokyoroland]

wow!!! I can't believe this post is still alive! Its been almost a year and a half since I first posted!!

What a year its been! I've had fun working with friends and recording instruments, but the orchestra thing never happened, since there were problems with the film..

but guess what? I come back here to brush up my skills, and I see my old post!! Now, THIS time, I actually DO have the oppotunity to work with a real orchestra next fall... I found an awesome conductor!

Starting out with one instruments, then building to quartet-type situations I think is the best way to do it..

There is so much to learn!!