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440 Forums _ Switch PC to Mac _ Midi Playback Problems

Posted by: lamplighter Tue 24 May 2005, 01:24

Hello and I hope I'm in the right forum for this one.
I've got a lot of semi-pro MIDI produced on PCs using Turtle Beach sound cards and QSE, Cakewalk and other sequencers. The more complex ones (with a lot of events and controls) always bog down and stop when I play them back on my eMac G4, 1 gig memory using the internal QuickTime synthesizer. Doesn't matter which software program I use to play the MIDI, I suppose it all uses the internal synth. What is the solution here? I want to be able to play and edit these MIDIs on the Mac. Thanks and regards!

Posted by: lamplighter Tue 24 May 2005, 04:52

After 14 views and no replies, maybe I'd better make it clear that I'm not a PC troll. If I could afford it, I'd like a dual G5 PowerMac with an Apple display and plenty of slots for the best available sound cards and plenty of power for Logic. But a reasonable number of suggestions for sound cards, interfaces and software usable on the eMac that will play a full-fisted MIDI would be helpful. If not, I'll research it some more myself and thanks for nothing.

Posted by: reddish Wed 25 May 2005, 08:20

hey Lamplighter... first off welcome to the forums lol cool.gif

no one thinks that your a P.C. troll lol there appears to be a rigid screening process to prevent those types from posting or at least i thought (gazing over my win98 box screaming for help) whatever i am one of those 14.... and i must admit that I am ashamed for my lack of a responce (i pray that you will forgive me) i would have responded but I really have no idea where the hell turtle beach is and i am a newcomer as well (sort of) and i didn't want to steer you in the wrong directionthe only thing that i would feel confident about saying to you is what i use which has been very good to me so far though i must admit it has still to go through the ringer of serious music production "I am Lazy" but i am still trying to get my head around the software and what not LOGIC is a harsh mistress for newcomers... I wish i had more to tell ya i am not at all familiar with the E-Mac so the only thing that i could even say is tha I am on a ppc g5 Dual 2 GHz 5gigs of DDR SDRAM running tiger (10.4.1) and Logic Pro 7.0.1 along with live 4.0.1 and that pretty much takes care of everything that i want to do midi samples ear wax etc my M-audio 410 started out rocky driver problems etc but thier tiger driver update works like a champ though it's still in beta and i am looking forward to thier final relaese http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.driverdownload&ID=480 hmmmmmmm Well theres my decididly unprofessional opinion rambel rambel rambel as far as midi on a mac you cant get any better than logic there may also be some help for your bogged down g4 freezing tracks etc but like i said i am a newbie so take my poorly worded reply with the proverbial grain of salt.
well anyways..... don't get all worked up man there are loads of good people here and they'll get around to ya eventually lol take some reds smoke a joint and i am shure someone vastly more qualified than I will be right with you with some reall advice Directly.......

Welcome once again wink.gif

Posted by: lamplighter Thu 26 May 2005, 00:38

Thanks, reddish, for your reply. I posted in the getting started forum as well which may be the best place for the post. I'm doing my own homework on this one. I'm pretty sure the eMac can handle the MIDI playback and that the problem is in QuickTime's synth. Just need something more powerful - so I'll find out what is available. Just in case you want to check out the files I'm talking about, truck to these links. I'd be curious how they play on your QuickTime synth vs. your other hardware.

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.geocities.com/lampbay/stomp.mid

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.geocities.com/lampbay/pfheaven.mid

Let me know the results.

biggrin.gif

Posted by: lamplighter Thu 26 May 2005, 00:40

Check that first link - it should be:

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.geocities.com/lampbay/stomp1.mid

Posted by: lepetitmartien Thu 26 May 2005, 03:06

Just a pick-a-boo, if people look on a thread and don't answer, usually it's because they don't have an intelligent (or very stupid) answer to give. wink.gif (and please, no multiple post elsewhere)

Myself, I'm a bit confused on the issue… unsure.gif

Posted by: lamplighter Thu 26 May 2005, 16:08

Thanks, lepetitemartien, for your reply.
The issue, in the nutshell of your choice, is that the more complex a MIDI file is (more events such as notes, controllers, etc.) the less likely that it will playback without stopping on an average quality MIDi playback device. The QT synth, many on-mainboard sound chips on PCs and numerous PC soft synths simply will overload and stop when encountering too many MIDi instructions. A high quality soundcard, such the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz in my PC, can handle 16 tracks filled with notes, controllers and other events, with a faithful playback without a pause. Processor power could be a problem, not on the AMD PC, but I don't suspect that my 1.25 GHz PowerPC G4 with 1GB DDR SDRAM would have any problem. If you can direct me to more tech specs on the Mac family - such as is there an onboard sound chip that handles the MIDI playback instead of a soft synth - I might be able to learn more about what I don't know about Macs. Thanks again. biggrin.gif

Posted by: lepetitmartien Thu 26 May 2005, 21:10

If you want details, I think a tour on the ADC (Apple developer conference site, go apple.com) would help, as as far as I know, you're using this way only software in OS X. The QuickTime synth is a GM bank courte$y wink.gif of Roland.

I think the problem is not the track number (16 is not a lot), it's you asking a lot from software only AND sample reading on the hard drive on an entry level computer. Remember the OS uses the drive too for the swap at the same time on the eMac which is not with a faster than fast HD. That's the only reasonable thing I can think of.

Posted by: lamplighter Fri 27 May 2005, 01:23

Thanks for your advice - been to ADC - lots of info there. I'm curious if an iMac G5 would play the same files using QuickTime. I doubt it because I think the limitations are in the QuickTime synth. If not, that means the limitation is in the G4, the I/O controller and the audio codec chip on the eMac. Anyone willing to test them on an iMac G5 and reply before I can take a disc to the store and do so would be appreciated. No doubt an external module would solve the problem and end the discussion. Thanks to all for what might seem to be an insignificant topic - except to me, of course! smile.gif

Posted by: lepetitmartien Fri 27 May 2005, 02:50

Glad it helped smile.gif

Now I'm playing Stomp right now in Quicktime, the average CPU is 10% on my mono G5 1.8. A peak at 2 places at 29 %. Maybe you kill the G4 wink.gif What I don't understand is there are places where the sound stops, CPU is still high (29-31%)… I wonder if there's not something fishy in the file itself. And here there's CPU to spare, and a SATA drive… strange…

Does the midi file load correctly? Performer doesn't seem to like it. unsure.gif

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Fri 27 May 2005, 14:26

Ok,, logic here..
To figure out what the problem is would take some reseach... which I am not inclined to do at this time..

The root of the problems comes to the internal synth you are using.. The QuikTime synth is limited IMHO. I would suspect its midi recieve / send chanels are rather limited (I would guess around 16 pollyphony channels). Where a Creative Labs (Audigy) card (PC) is quite impressive.The synth engine for PCs with most Creative Labs sound cards can (and will) accept more midi data than that of QuikTime... I know for fellow mac users, that's a hard pill to swallow. But then again, that's why most of us stay away from cheezy QuikTime instruments, and sequencers. blink.gif

Posted by: oaomdal Thu 26 Apr 2007, 00:11

Hi, I thougt it would be a good idea to reply to your post, now that I have read it. Maybe it won't help you, but I will try to be polite and help you the best I can.

First of all, the reason why I read your post, is that I am planning to buy a mac, and as a Keyboard player, MIDI is very important to me, and therefore I got a bit scared when I read your post title. That is why I clicked on it, and read it. Maybe a lot of the other "14" are like me, wondering what problems mac has with MIDI.

About your MIDI problem:
As I mentioned before, I am a keyboard player, and I like to use as many different sounds as possible in my live performances (5 or 6 is my current limit, and I hate MIDI playback) therefore I has been looking for over two years for something to help me switch sounds easily, but I have not found it yet. And as an electronics engineer, I decided to make my own little gadget for this purpose smile.gif And because of this, I know a bit about MIDI.
Here are some suggestions of the cause of your problems
1:
MIDI has 16 channels, and most commercial midi players support only 16 tracks. The reason for this is they thought that there would be no need for more than one track per channel, wich makes sense. But the proffesional MIDI recording software that you use, has more tracks to make big arrangements more tidy.
Maybe your advanced MIDI files uses more than 16 tracks?
Solution:
MIDI arrangements can be treated as audio arrangements, merge down the tracks to maximum 16 tracs, and use only the first 16 tracs (e.g. 0-15 or 1-16)
2:
MIDI is a very advanced language. It tells the synth how to play. MIDI has instructions about what instrument, volume, velocity, note, pedal ++ is used. Extreme examples are: The piano lid is 32% opened, The guitar microphone is placed 7" away, 2" over and 3" left to the hole. According to the MIDI spec. the synth must ignore MIDI instructions that are not of interest. Usually synths come with a MIDI implementation chart that describes the implemented instructions. These charts are hard to read for people that have not studied MIDI.
Solution:
Try a more advanced synth, or MIDI player.
3:
SysEx - System Exclusive. MIDI synths usually has extra functions that are not standarized. KORG keyboards has functions Roland does not have, and the other way around. KORG MonoPoly has functions KORG Polysix does not have, and the other way around. This is much like doctors talking to doctors and mechanics talking to mechanics. They all use the same language, but some use words that only a few understand. (English - Human language, MIDI - Instrument language).
Some SysEx messages also tells the instrument how to sound by sending a wave file through MIDI.
Solution:
Use the same setup on playback as you used on recording.
4:
Human error. Did you press play, are the devices connected, do they work, are they on, did you remember to connect the power cord, do you have a file to play, is it a MIDI - and not a BAT file, are you playing the MIDI file on a device that supports MIDI playback, are you dreaming?
Solution:
Find the problem, and try to solve it, or find something else to do.

I think this covers the most common MIDI problems you may stumble across, and I hope it helped you. (I just had to have problem 4 on the list - just for laughs biggrin.gif )

Posted by: lamplighter Fri 27 Apr 2007, 00:22

I solved this a long time ago. In the Mac community there are many that believe that their computers are perfect and there is nothing that can be done to make them better. After many years of using PC's to make pro MIDI, I had to come to the conclusion that the only Macs that will do pro MIDI are the high-end machines that will let you plug in a sound card or a lower-end MIDI with an external playback device plugged in. As for software, you have to pay for a quality program like Finale, Sibelius, Logic or the like to get a good finished product. Quick Time plays MP3 with no problems but it will overload and quite if your MIDI is too complex. All my MIDI is 16 channel but there are quite a few note and other events that need processing power. I never had problems with them on PC. I plan to take a disc and check out the playback on a core 2 duo machine and see if the additional processing power solves the problem, but I strongly suspect the Quick time synth.

Posted by: lamplighter Fri 27 Apr 2007, 00:36

QUOTE (lepetitmartien @ Fri 27 May 2005, 01:50) *
Glad it helped smile.gif

Now I'm playing Stomp right now in Quicktime, the average CPU is 10% on my mono G5 1.8. A peak at 2 places at 29 %. Maybe you kill the G4 wink.gif What I don't understand is there are places where the sound stops, CPU is still high (29-31%)… I wonder if there's not something fishy in the file itself. And here there's CPU to spare, and a SATA drive… strange…

Does the midi file load correctly? Performer doesn't seem to like it. unsure.gif


Been a long time since I've been back. If you're still following this thread, the MIDIs stomp and pennies from heaven at http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://lamplightmus.topcities.com and other MIDi with a lot of pedal instructions seem to overload the soft synth on the Mac. Quick time adds a bit of reverb and sustain itself and MIDI that I've done on PC seem to not convert well - the piano pedal events and passages with a lot of notes seem to overload and the playback stops. I've seen this continue to the intel imacs as well. I just decided to convert those MIDI to MP3 for the benefit of Mac listeners - hard to go back and recode an improv and get it with that live feel and sound. I don't like using Windows so I had to adjust to what the Mac does and how well and what you have to pay to get the results you want.

Posted by: gdoubleyou Fri 27 Apr 2007, 20:24

Take a look at the file in an event editor, there could be some CC data that overwhelmes the QT instrument.

Try dragging and dropping the midi file into Garage Band and selecting instruments. if you have one of the newer versions of GB you can freeze tracks to free up cpu resources.

I have a 1GHz Powerbook, and it quite challenged when it comes to softsysnths, I constantly have to freeze tracks to get stable playback.

With my Core Duo Mac Mini, it has enough muscle so that I don't have a need for freezing.

1GHz is a slow machine by todays standards.

cool.gif

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