Beginner Interface, Daw... Options

[T1mon]

There might be some topics about this already but you don't mind writing a little, do you?

I'm a guitar player and want to start to record some of my stuff. (not that it's worth it but it's nice if you can record it together with a drum loop or something like that and to capture ideas on hd)

I would be using a 12" 867mhz Powerbook with 640MB Ram and OSX.
I tried putting my guitar directly into the line in of the PB and then using Audacity to record. As a preamp I use Amplitube Live.
But with that setup I had quite some latency which I think comes from Amplitube because when I play guitar and for example open a window or scroll it takes about 1-2 seconds to do that... not really nice.

So one of my questions is now if this problem would be history with a nice interface? (this one looks nice: M-Audio MobilePre USB

I'm also looking for a nice recording program. There are so many out there and I really have no idea which one to get. I don't need anything professional, it just has to record my guitar and maybe be able to insert a drum loop. (I'm currently using Fruity Loops on a crappy PC but I could get Reason)
So I don't midi.

I hope you understood what I mean. Thx!

[T1mon]

Can anybody help?
Should I get the M-Audio MobilePre USB?

And is there a possibility to insert FL loops into a recording program and then record my guitar together with the loop?
I downloaded the Reason 2.5 demo and couldn't really get through it... FL seems so much easier to me.

Also which recording program would you recommend? Like mentioned before, I don't need MIDI.

[Bytor]

T1mon, Wish I had an answer for you. I'm basically in the same boat. Looking for a way to lay down some digital drums and keys, then mix in some of my own bass, guitar and vocals. Not looking to spend alot since I recently got myself a 1ghz TiBook and am already on the wife's .... list.

I too have been looking at the M-Audio MobilePre USB. It looks like a good deal. One thing I couldn't ascertain from any of the on-line stores that carry the MobilPre is whether or not it comes with any recording/sequencing software, which would be ideal.

Anyway, I'll point you to any forums that may answer our question.

good luck.

[T1mon]

Thx, Bytor!
I don't think that the MobilePre USB comes with a recording software.

[scientificbox]

Maximum Audio Tools (M-Audio Delta, USB audio and Firewire products as well as M-Audio USB MIDI controllers)

• Ableton Live Delta audio sequencer (special edition)
• M-Audio ProSession series WAV/REX samples (125MB)
• Arkaos VJ VMP visual performance software (special edition)
• IK Multimedia SampleTank SE VST sample player (special edition)
• DSound RT Express VST host with WAV player (special edition)

i've never used the "delta" version, but abelton live is a very nice loop sequencer. it also works resonably well as a multitrack recorder (if they haven't taken those features out of this version), so if all your looking for is live guitar and some drum loops, it may be all you would ever need. i'm not sure if sampletank will work directly within Live (i don't remember it useing VST inst.) but if it does, you would have some pretty good synth and "acoustic" sounds availiable too.

[Bytor]

scientificbox, Thanks for the info. I think my mind is made up then. Can't wait till payday ;-)

r/

[xenonaut]

T1mon,

I don't think your latency is from the audio capture method you are using; I think Amplitube Live seems to bog down the system. Hopefully they'll clean up the code a bit.

I recently found myself in your position (more or less). I'm a guitarist and wanted to be able to capture and develop song ideas on my Powerbook. Mine has no onboard audio input, so I needed to consider capture, as well. I also wanted *basic* MIDI, just because I wanted the flexibility to change the drum track later.

The cheapest solution I found was Deck with a Griffin iMic, but there was *no* MIDI, and I had a lot of problems with spurious noise in Deck (I later learned that Deck is *very* picky about HD performace, and I was using the built-in, so maybe this could have been resolved).

I looked at other solutions like Logic's BigBox package and Cubase SX. They were ok (especially SX, except that it was pricey and wouldn't recognize my USB audio capture devices) but not really what I was looking for.

Eventually, I went with the Digidesign MBox. I paid a little over $400 US, and it solves my audio capture problem *and* gives me Pro Tools LE. Pro Tools is not *perfect*, but it *is* an industry standard of sorts, gives me enough MIDI that I can record with a click track and add drums later without synch problems, and has pretty good audio editing features. Overall, I've been pretty pleased.

You (maybe) don't need the audio interface (although I suspect the quality of the MBox is much better than the onboard audio in), so you might have more options. If you're running OS 9 (or capable of running it, and willing to boot it), you could try out the Pro Tools Free version from Digidesign's site. It's limited to 8 tracks; if that's enough for you (and you can run OS 9), you've got a free solution. If you think that's *not* enough for you, it would still give you a chance to play with Pro Tools and see what the environment is like. I've been satisfied with Pro Tools LE.

Otherwise, you could look at software-only solutions from Logic, Cubase, Mark of the Unicorn, Sagan (Metro), or as previously recommended, Ableton (Live).

By the way, I tried Amplitube Live and was not very impressed with performance. The Amplitube PlugIn seems to work *much* better. You might consider other options for getting the guitar sound you want: perhaps a Pod or the (much cheaper and reputedly quite good) Behringer V-Amp. I plug into a Carvin Quad-X tube preamp for basic tone, and then process in software with various PlugIns (including Amplitube).

One more thing: you might consider a 7200 RPM FireWire HD. I mentioned that Deck is especially picky about HD speed, but in truth, all DAW environments need a fast drive, ideally one which is not your system drive (and your Powerbook's internal drive is probably no faster than 5400 RPM, if it's even that fast). Furthermore, audio projects tend to use a lot of disk space.

Good luck.

This post has been edited by xenonaut: Wed 23 Jul 2003, 09:45

[T1mon]

xenonaut,

thx for the informative reply!

Is there another method to get a good guitar sound into the computer if I use the MBox, M-Audio MobilePre USB, or the Aardvark? I would have to buy a preamp, right?

The MBox looks good but it's a little expensive. The M-Audio or Aardvark interface would be a little cheaper...

Why do you need MIDI to change the drum track? How did you record the drum track?

I would like to put Fruity Loops loops into the recording program, that shouldn't be a problem eh?

I'm running OSX and can just start in Classic mode.

I shouldn't have a problem with the HD, we got 3 external Firewire HDs and I think I could use one of 'em.

[xenonaut]

Is there another method to get a good guitar sound into the computer if I use the MBox, M-Audio MobilePre USB, or the Aardvark? I would have to buy a preamp, right?

Well, philosophies vary on this topic. Some want to hear the "vibe" of the guitar sound in order to put the right feel into their playing, and insist on some sort or outboard preamp, be it POD, V-Amp, some other type of preamp/effects unit ,or any sort of conventional preamp (I use my Quad-X and a Triaxis). Others swear that they can do just as well recording the guitar "dry" and adding the sound, including amp simulation, later.

Note that here "dry" refers to distortion/amp tone ony -- it's almost always better to record without "effects" and add afterwards, so you're not stuck with what you printed, if it doesn't work well in a mix.

Hypothetically, you *could* generate the "amp tone" within the computer in realtime (as you play) with AmpliTube live, or with a real time Plug In in a DAW, but as you seem to have discovered, it seems that it's still pretty hard to get past the latency. In fact, many audio interfaces offer "zero latency monitoring" as a feature: you monitor a combination of you playback with the direct signal straight out of the interface, so the live signal doesn't have to go into the computer and then come back out.

Of course, you can still use an amp and a Mic to generate amp tone; that technique has worked pretty well for years (notwithstanding that it can be detrimental to your relationship with your neighbors).

he MBox looks good but it's a little expensive. The M-Audio or Aardvark interface would be a little cheaper...

Right; the biggest advantage of the MBox is it gives you a *decent* hardware solution (adequate for 2 tracks, with a reasonable feature set and respectable Mic preamps) *and* a pretty good audio recording/editing environment (although Pro Tools is probably not the ultimate solution for the total MIDI/Synth head).

Otherwise, you're looking at hardware + software (unless you want to use the built-in audio in/out. I'm not in position to say if it's adequate for your needs. But note that you might need an external mixer if you want to get the "zero latency" effect (by mixing your playback directly with your live source).

If you decide you would be better served by a different software package, there are indeed a number of options, M-Audio among them. I don't know Aardvark. Note that I'm confident in USB for 2 simultaneous tracks, but would be weary of those devices which claim to handle 4-6 tracks of audio over USB. My instinct is that if you want more than 2 tracks simultaneously, it's time to start looking at Firewire or PCMCIA.

Why do you need MIDI to change the drum track? How did you record the drum track?

Well, *hypothetically*, you might not, *but*, I've found that the best way for me to handle this is by setting up Pro Tools to generate a MIDI click track. Then, Pro Tools knows exactly the tempo of the song, exactly how the beats and measures line up, and can then generate MIDI Time Clock info to "remote control" my Boss DR-660 drum machine, which I can program with any drum part I want. This is then all perfectly synched, so I don't have to guess and approximate how things line up.

Note that (a) this is not specific to Pro Tools; any decent DAW will do this, and (b), it may be different if you are depending mostly on drum loops in WAV or AIFF format (although Pro Tools and other DAWs all have capability for working with loops, as well, of course).

It also depends on how you work. For me, I usually get an idea on guitar and want to get it down quick, before I lose it. I don't want to spend a bunch of time fussing with the right drum groove at that point; I'd rather work out the perfect drum track later. If, on the other hand, your process begins with drum tracks and you build everything over those, than maybe you don't need to worry about changing them out later.

I would like to put Fruity Loops loops into the recording program, that shouldn't be a problem eh?

I'm running OSX and can just start in Classic mode.

I can't really address this; I know nothing about Fruity Loops. I thought it was a Windows-only thing...

I shouldn't have a problem with the HD, we got 3 external Firewire HDs and I think I could use one of 'em.

Cool. I haven't had a problem in Pro Tools using my internal drive for a few tracks, but they recommend a fast, non-system drive, which makes sense; I'm sure all DAW's would benefit from this. And as I said, audio projects can eat drive space pretty fast.

Good luck.

[T1mon]

I think that recording "dry" would be really nice. I'd like to play around with the sound after I recorded...
I would have to connect the guitar to the Amp then and the Amp then to the interface right?
I thought about using a mic too, but I'd like to record with headphones.

Fruity Loops is a windows thing, that's why I gotta go to the crappy PC we have here, create a drumloop (with some nice strings as a background) and then somehow import them to the recording program.
Native Instruments is gonna come out with "Intakt", I think that's gonna be like FL, then I can do the whole thing on my Mac.

I'm still not sure which of those 3 interfaces I should take because PT looks really nice and with the 2 other interfaces I would have the problem with choosing a DAW again... on the other hand the MBox is a little expensive. (but includes a much better DAW than the other two...) I'll see for how much I can get the MBox and then decide.

Thx again for all the help, xenonaut!