Hey guys, let me start off by introducing myself. My name is Joe, I'm a drummer, an amateur audio engineer, and I love music. I used to play in a pop/punk rock band but we broke up and I sold most of my recording gear (If you could have even called it that). I have since 'graduated', if you will, to a more satisfying funk/soul/jazz flavored band, and consequently re-ignited my passion for recording, mixing, and producing music. With my past in a rock band came experience with tracking and mixing but I want to do things differently than a laptop, a few mics and an 8 channel firewire this time.

Let me cut to the chase. I recently came across a Digidesign 882 I/O and PCI card on Craigslist. I wondered what it was that made an 8 channel i/o so cheap? ($100). I downloaded the manual from the archive on digidesign.com and read up. Now I get it! It's old! Despite its age, the specifications and capabilities look like the right level for my purpose. The catch was, however, being the PCI noob that I am, that I didn't know I needed a desktop computer to make it happen. oops.

My dad has owned macs since the dawn of time and currently uses a G4 400mhz with almost 2gb of ram and 100gb HD space. We've been telling him to get a new computer for what seems like years now, and he's finally getting the message. He told me that once he does I could use/cannibalize his computer to build a studio machine. With that said, I was concerned that the processor speed wasn't going to cut it with a ProTools rig, so I set out to craigslist once again. I found a G4 with dual 500mhz processors and no HD being sold for $130 something. I talked him down to $100 and the computer is mine as soon as I can get there to pick it up! As soon as I get it I plan on cleaning the HD's from my dad's old G4, removing those, and the RAM and putting them in the Dual 500 machine. I have a Mackie 1604 board, KRK RP8 monitors, several good mics, a few sets of cans, and other assorted studio goodies to go with this set up. All in all, the new G4 dual, and the 882 will run me right around $200.

Now, with most of my saga in a nutshell told, it's time to ask (almost after the fact it seems) if this path is the best one for me. So far, I have invested no money, no computers have been picked apart, and no money has exchanged hands. I just felt like since I have never really entered the realm of PCI interfaces, and have somewhat limited (but competent) knowledge of ProTools and Digidesign, it would be best to get some opinions and advice from people who definitely know what they're talking about. At this point it would probably be good to mention that I'm not looking to record a platinum album, just have a solid, clean, clear, expandable set up that will work for me and track my funk band with few issues.

So, I'm sorry for the novel, here goes:

-Would the Franken-computer I mentioned above track, mix/edit, and over all function properly? (G4 dual 500mhz, 2+gb RAM, 2 HD's: 20gb, 80gb) Before you say no, could you tell me why or what I would need to do to make it work?

-Is the PCI interface system too complicated for someone like me to figure out? Before you say yes, could you tell me why and what I would need to do to figure it out?

-Is this set up too ancient to take me very far into the future of recording and music? (To be clear, I know that a lot of studios/engineers still use G4's and older OS's and versions of PT very competently. I'd likely be running OSX 10.4 with PT TDM 6.4 (+updates)


I think that's all that I have for now, and I look forward to any advice you can give me. If you think this would be better suited in the digidesign subforum, moderators, please move it as you see fit.



Thank you for your help, I appreciate the opportunity.

Joe Sheehan

Well to track 8 things at once at any time you'd be ok and to edit most likely you'd be fine unless you're planning to do some intense beat detective. Mixing depends on how many tracks you think you'll end up with and how much processing you want to do with plugins. I think if you plan to go over 64 tracks per song you'll need another mix farm card. If you plan on getting elaborate and intesive with plugins you'll probably want more mix farm cards anyway for the tdm processing. The PCI thing isn't terribly hard to figure out. You open the computer, plug in the card and if you have more than one card you'll need the digi ribbon cable to connect them to each other and then close the computer back up and run the digi hardware test to make sure it finds no errors. If you are familiar with the hardware setup of pro tools le it's not a huge jump but there are a few more options to get used to. The system you are looking to get into is in no way going toward the future. It's an old system, I don't even think you can run pro tools 6.4 on osx 10.4. Plus on the old pro tools mix systems the highest compatible version is 6.4. The only future would be in your music. I definitely think it's possible to record quality tracks on this system that you would be proud of. It's really about the quality of your instruments and playing that will make the most difference. It also would give you less to overcome in this system to go for better quality mics and mic pre's and I think a 24 bit version of the 888's cause if I'm not mistaken the 882's are unbalanced but I could be wrong. I guess it's a question of what you're willing to overcome with this system and there are always hassles with older systems and not being able to get support from software and hardware companies. It's not something I think can't be overcome. Regardless of what system you're running, to have a quality product you will need to rely a lot more on the musical and engineeering aspects to get there. That being said it makes it a lot easier to concentrate on those things if you aren't having to worry about hunting down an outdated piece of hardware or software to make something work or having to try multiple recording techniques to make an instrument sound the way you want it to using lower quality mics and mic pres or lower quality interfaces and clocking. The more you have to concentrate on making things sound good sonically and technically the less time you're focused on making the song sound good musically.

As I understand it, 800mhz is about as slow as you want to be for current audio applications. I have a 1.5 ghz powerbook and it keeps up but, frankly it is getting a bit long in the tooth. This is not a problem for you though....ebay sells all kinds of macs for dirt cheap. If I were you I would look for a G4 1.5 ghz machine and look forward to the years of use and stability.....Also maybe look into getting a firewire external hard drive that has the Oxford 900 chipset. After that all you really need are decent preamps, and mics (crappy ones are ok sometimes too) and, the odd compressor (maybe....it does help for recording vocals).

Rock on, amigo!


www.myspace.com/mortal_engines

Thanks for the advice guys.

To add a bit of information, I am expecting the use of virtual instruments to be minimal if not non existent. The intent of this project is namely to track and produce basic but quality recordings of primarily live performances.

Banevt - Thanks for the in depth reply! The beat detective use (if I'm clear on its use to align beats exactly to the tempo) will be basically non-existent as well. We are looking to focus like you said on musicianship and really documenting what we do exactly how we do it, not manufacturing a spotless track that lacks that certain freedom and character in small flaws. Like you said, its the quality of the instruments and the player that will determine the quality of the tracks ultimately. I believe that's the premise that will allow this set up to work well for us.

As for plugins, I'll probably run as many as I need as inserts until it starts to get bogged down, then write them to the track and free up the CPU Usage. As I noted above, these will likely be mostly organic, so effects and processing will be minimal save a bit of compression and limited EQing.

I was expecting just that kind of answer for the future of this set up. I'm thinking that if I can work it right, this set up will continue to do its job effectively for a long time to come. Yes, it won't keep up with technology's progression, I'll be running on an outdated computer with discontinued hardware and old versions of Pro Tools, but as long as it works to begin with and is furthermore isolated as a studio computer, I'm hoping it'll retain its functionality and usefulness for a while. You're right, it may be a hassle tracking down software and updates to make it function properly, but I guess as long as it functions the first time, It should continue to do so! Obviously though, I'm not paying much, so at least eventually moving on to bigger and better things won't be leaving behind a multi-thousand dollar investment. The 882 does have balanced ins/outs by the way.

To speak to the bit about "spending time tackling the sonic quality takes away from focusing on the music", well, you're right. That is why I asked about the difficulty of setting something like this up. I tend to look at that technical aspect, including changing and perfecting the acoustics as part of the art of making and recording music. On the other hand though, there isn't much I can do to make behringer mic sound like a Neumann, and there's no use in 'polishing a turd' as they say. I don't think that's quite the case here though.


Mortalengines - That's interesting you bring up that fact about an 800mhz processor speed. Would you guys recommend a single processor with a higher speed or dual processors with slower speeds respectively but equal or faster speeds as a pair? Can this set up utilize two processors at once? From what I understand, dual processors handle bigger loads with more stability so I'm thinking that It'd be best to go with duals over a single one?

I have been looking into FW hard drives to record to as well. What in particular makes one with the Oxford 900 chipset superior? Does it just work particularly well with Macs or the digidesign/PT package?



Phew, I guess that takes care of most of it. Thanks for the help, this is just the kind of response I need! Keep it coming!

Joe Sheehan

I reckon older PT systems are becoming fantastic bargains these days- though for myself, it means my set-up is worth less and pretty much impossible to upgrade from now. Still, it does the job which is the most important thing.

In my studio, I run PT 5.* on OS 9.2 on a DP G4. 2GB of RAM and external SCSI swappable HD. I have a Control 24 desk with 888/24 and a 1622, plus a core card and 2 mix farms. This gives enough mixing power for any project I've run to date- up to about 40 tracks.

I think you can run up to 6.4.1 on the older TDM system, which I think is supported on OS10.3. I keep toying with the idea of upgrading to this, but my system is reasonably stable as it is (if it crashes, its usually when quitting PT) and works for most studio projects. I have an LE (002) rig which I use for mobile stuff and MIDI based things (well, that and Logic). I often take projects onto the bigger rig for lots of acoustic additions.

Its how you use it thats going to have the biggest impact on the results you get. You could have a great new HD set-up and produce lousy results if you don't use it properly.

Use it well and happy mixing.

From what I understand, you're correct in that it is only supported up to OS 10.3. That is ok though, because like you stated and like I mentioned above, as long as it functions properly as is, there isn't a need to upgrade until I have the money, or something breaks down. It's good to hear though, that someone else has experience running an older set up with success.

Does anyone here have experience soldering cables? I will need two cable snakes for this set up and I figured it would be the most cost effective to make them myself since I'm a solid solderer.

Thanks again for the input,
Joe

This post has been edited by Sheehan: Mon 3 Mar 2008, 05:09