Hello All,

First I want to thank you for taking your time to read this. That spirit is what computers has always been about, only we aren't using Altair or Apple I anymore.

To give you some background, I'm a PC user from the DOS days, when Apple already had a Alto based interface and in terms of OS alone was way ahead. I'm also a PC gamer turned game developers and since after about the Apple II (which a lot of great game developers started on) Apple was in a decline as a games platform and it wasn't an option for me.

I'm also a musician, and as my game development project progressed I started to devote more time to my music. I began building my studio and seeing what software and hardware worked well and what I liked. I'm now at the threshold of going full force with my music and really focusing on it, and I want to complete a powerful studio. I need to figure out my core and I'm trying to see if Apple is the best option. I have also have thought about tapping the Apple game market since great games are still fairly rare but the market is growing. So given all that, and also keeping in mind that a lot of people be it Apple or PC use their platform because it's what they started on and know, and i know PC, I need advice from those who have used both for a good clip of time.

I have never seen any comparison of PC vs Mac dealing with audio apps like Logic 5, or Cubase, or ProTools which sucks, of if you have let me know. I was checking out Logic 5 for a bit before it went Mac only, so I changed to Cubase (also because I think the Cubase audio sounded better, which now makes sense given its Nuendo roots). As deep as I got into both apps they seem to be on par. I recently went to MOTU's site to see DP which is also Mac only and that looks nice. And then there is ProTools LE, or maybe even an base line HD or Nuendo.

So please what is your feedback on these sequencers? Does ProTools HD just do everything that much faster, real time mainly, is that its claim to fame? And does LE really compare, or just share a name? I'm not sure the ProTools studio compatibility is as important as it once was since a lot more studios will work with wave files. Digital Performer also file compatibility with ProTools. So I'm assuming that PT excels in speed and does most everything real time, otherwise its just another sequencer?

What is your experience on performance? I read some Mac users claiming that Cubase isn't as tuned for Mac and the PC performance is much better now. Plus that Yamaha purchase has me wondering about the direction given what happen with Logic dropping PC.


Cost / Performance - Coming from PC this makes it very hard since given what I have already I can build a few High end PC's for the price of a Mac. That is why I'm trying to get some advice.

Also, VST Link under Cubase, any users out there? I have thought about this as a good reason for Cubase as I could use a Mac and my other PC. But again if other hardware systems like ProTools does everything much faster, real time, then it may not be worth it.

Anyways this is a Mac I was looking at, and then the PC I would get if I stay. Keep in mind, for me the PC price would be a bit less since I already have a fair amount of stuff, but I wanted an even keel.

Apple G5 Power Mac

1.8GHz PowerPC G5
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (Supports up to 4GB)
80GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Total = $1,500

Custom PC

AMD Athlon 64 3000
3GB PC3200 RAM
WD Caviar Series 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard
GeForce FX 5200 Video Card with 128MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical
Windows XP Pro
3U Rackmount Case

Total = $1,300

As you can see for 200 < then the G5 I can get 170GB more of HD space, a video card with 128MB of RAM, a rackmount case (Note: I could go with a standard case and save about $150, but if I go PC I'll have at least two so I want to get them racked to save space), and the BIG difference 3GB of RAM. Keep in mind I can buy parts over time, something Apple has totally failed allowing. On the up side that MiniMac is finally a nice step, but I doubt it would work for me in Audio, and likely not in Game Dev.

Is the 1.8GHz PowerPC really that much faster when dealing with Audio then the 2GHz AMD 64(aka 3GHz Intel CPU)? I know this is likely since NINTENDO and MS are using IBM to make CPU's for their console, just as Apple does for the Mac, but how much a gap is in question.

I haven't seen any real numbers outside the stupid Photoshop filter test. But I noted on Apple's site that the single 1.8 G5 vs the 3.4 Intel is only 20% > on machines with 2GB of RAM, and RAM is a big.. big part of performance so a 1.8 G5 with ONLY 256MB RAM might not have that 20% margin against a 2GHZ AMD(3GHz Intel) with 3GB of RAM;

So the G5 above is $2,224.00 with 2GB of RAM and a 250GB Hard Drive (its an extra $525 for the RAM and $200 for the Hard Drive upgrade.) This brings it up to the 20% lead as in Apples Benchmark. $1000 more! So I can have 2 of my Custom Machine for the price of one Apple, well for less given the extra PC parts I have, but for anyone else it would be about 300 buck more then the Apple for 2 Customs.

So that is the hard part for me to get past. And the fact that Apple is supposed to be all about music, but yet no benchmarks?

HELP! = ) Apple does a lot right, and so does Microsoft, but since Microsoft and Apple aren't likely to combine and bring the bests of the two companies together, I would like to have a Mac since I haven't had one around for extended time. ( I have an TRS 80 =) )

I hope all this information helps others. And please, mac cross overs, or the rich, do a comparison to get some hard numbers for us people who would like Macs but can't get over Apples tight customizing fist and the price it creates. It reminds me of Packard Bell who would charge 3k and throw in a lot of useless software and such. Also, I just read the standard warranty but didn't see it, does adding new parts yourself (ie breaking the seal) void the warranty? If not then I could customize the apple a bit using PC parts to help offset the cost.

A note since this will come up. I don't know what everyone else is has been doing to their machines but Window XP running Cubase, or Logic, doesn't Crash for me, and I don't have compatiblity problems with software or hardware. Granted I know more then your average user, but mainly it's about getting the right hardware, something PC manufactures don't always do, that is why a lot of people have issues in my experience. Also, given Windows install base and the fact that very fool has access to us a program to upload a virus hack a computer it is very open to issues on-line that Apple isn't. I have firewalls and all sorts of scaners and I haven't had a problem, but as a note my studio rig will be off-line unless required for some registration, otherwise I'll use one of my other rigs, so viruses and all the other such reason's Apples are better that I have seen don't apply. I'm after G5 performance info to warrent the price as well as how the various Sequencers work on the given platform and the benefits.

Thanks All.

Begin Rant

FOR MR JOBS - Maybe one of you hardcore Mac men can send him this. =)

I just want an Apple machine running OSX at a reasonable hardware price compare to PC. 2GB RAM upgrade shouldn't cost $525 when I can get 3GB of Corsair RAM for $300, and its all DDR RAM. that is just hardware monopoly, and everyone doesn't like MS for its software monopoly.

End Rant

This post has been edited by designlord: Sun 13 Mar 2005, 12:47

as an ex pc user of 15 years it is easy to look at a bunch of info and specs and price and comapre..
It is on e of those things that you really have to take the Mac for a "drive"

I always ask this question..
why do peoploe buy a Mercedes or a BMW or a rollsroyce or a ferarri.. they are all cars do basically the same thing.. but try to get one of these car owners to go back to a perfectly seemly good alternative.

I am not interested in going backs as my life is SOOO much more easier... I spent years sruffing about getting systems to work... I spent years making money out of it for others and doing their repairs and made alot of money on it..

Maybe this doesnt directly answer your question but i think it may point you in the direction of why we use an Apple these days.. I just sick of life being difficult.

I am more relaxed... My workflow is better.. I acehieve more and my girl friend doesnt here me screaming out another system and loves it cause i have more time to spend with here... I consider that well worth any amount of cash

Hello Shaneblyth,

Thanks for commenting. I have to admit that I may be a rare PC user in that even IRQ conflicts never kept me from playing the latest Sierra game when I was younger for very long, and with the latest OS and hardware quality I never have PC problems, unless it's DOA or buggy code which can happen given the volume that exist in the PC world. I have used a Mac at work durring my lunches to test them and they are nice.

I hope to get to do some actual music work on them at the local music shop (if they have current Macs) to see if I'm missing some cool feature. Overall, given the concept of the interface the PC and Mac use has been around since The Xerox Alto and the comom nature of the hardware and uses, I doubt I'll find any great systme difference beyond what I have heard. Stability (which on PC with the right parts has been problems for me) and Speed (this is the key difference I see, but maybe Apple isn't marketing the Mac right?)

I would like to find out as much as I can before I take that leap and buy one. It looks like I can return a desktop Mac within 15 days of purchase and have no restock fee. Who knows, I might be the first person ever to do a PC | Mac audio system comparison...

Keep em coming..

Thanks

PS - Also, I have a new edited post under the Mac hardware section that gets more to the point, I couldn't edit this post anymore.

This post has been edited by designlord: Mon 14 Mar 2005, 06:58

Apss like Logic and ProTools HD were written promarily for Mac and secondly for PC.
While the PC has both caught up and surpassed the Mac in many ways. (especially for geeks (that's a compliment)) the Mac is still a better platformm for PRO music.
For home use and hobbyists, the PC is fine. PTHD3 acell/w Logic, sounds better than
Nuendo (I beta tested Nuendo) because the PCI cards are doing the work.
I've been using a G4 with PTHD for years (this week G5 dual2.5 w/6gig of ram arrives for Accel) and the G4 was fine. For native systems, Nuendo will work but to maximize it you will need a dual processor PC and a good summing device (ie:Dangerous 2 Buss).
I had 3 songs on Billboard charts last year and am biased towards the Mac so use your own ears and judgement.
my 2 cents.
chap

until recently i've been using a mac with OS 8.6 I only stopped because after 7 or 8 years the hard disk decided to die. Before i got my new mac i would have definetly preferd to use my old mac over a Windows PC. I also used to have a Windows 98 PC (not sure about the exect specs, but a good computer at the time of release) and i couldnt stand it. It wouldnt stop crashing, and the amount of viruses it got!! I ended up throwing it out a good 4 years before the mac (the mac i bought earlier) So I'd always go for a Mac no matter what. I would probably go for my old mac instead of any new 'top of the range' PC anyway

I used PC for 10 years and I changed for mac 2 years ago.The best decesion in my life.Crash or not............The windows will be always the windows this is the problem.
I used the PC for music not for games and other stuff and I had a lot of problems.This is my experience.With the mac I never had problem especially with the osx.
About the hardware:
If I want to buy a real quality PC (every components are first quality) it will be more expensive than the Mac and I have to be almost a programer to deal with the windows.I'm a musicians not a computer guru.It's not important for me what is going on inside the operation system.I want to work in peace with my machine.
For me if the games are important I would buy a game console (xbox,playstation........) and I wouldn't use the computer to play.
I have the computer to work.
I don't know what to say about what to buy.Everything is individual.
Right now the Mac is much,much better for music and pro working.

Good luck

designlord, your post is very interesting. I am also in the process of deciding which platform to build for my music production. one item that keeps me looking at the PC is emu emulator X studio with the 1810m audio interface. I've been using emu samplers for years and they are amazing.

I'm curious. You did not mention a motherboard for your custom PC. What did you have in mind? That would make it cost more wouldn't it?

good luck and keep us posted

You know, if you're making music for pleasure (hobbyist sounds insulting)
then why waste time having to learn a new system AND the software AND make music. Use the PC and have fun!
If you intend to share or collaborate with others, there's always a workaround but you will be part of a larger community if you go with the Mac. There are pro's who use PCs but they are usually in the position where someone else worries about upkeep
and bugs etc....
Have fun and good luck. My new G5 arrives tomorrow. I'll drop my ProTools HD3Accell in, Logic Pro, Live, Reason, Finale, all of my plugs and the Waves Diamond bundle and a host of others. I'm sure it's going to be as smooth as rowing the Atlantic in a blizzard.
enjoy every sandwhich,
chap

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the input!

nycsour -

I too have looked at the Emu's 1820M. I was caught by "24-bit/192kHz converters (the same A/D converters used in Digidesign®'s ProTools® HD 192 I/O interface)" That is by far the best DAC I have seen in this price range. Right now I'm using a Terratec 88MT which I could expand, but for about the same price I could get much better DAC and the pre-amps. I would have to study it more, but from what I have read, for sub 1k price range it looks to be KING.

The Mobo I'm using now is EPoX "EP-8KDA3J" nForce3-250Gb and I would use it again likely, or the latest from them if I went 939 chip set, but no point right now. I didn't list a Mobo because the Mac didn't list one and I figured it would just clutter, but it's in the price. Rule of thumb is you can get a pretty top of the line PC mobo single cpu for about 86-140. I can get you a list of specs of what I was planning based upon my research if your interested.

chappy -

Writing music pleasure... ha! Well lyrics can be a pain. But really, now that I have a lot of my game technology (eg engine, editor, etc) pretty well done I have stopped coding and doing all game dev related stuff so I can focus on my music. I have a shit load of material, and I have been trying to guide it towards a overall style that I'm happy with and work out the lyrics and vocals and then I'm going to shop my demo to some labels and send it to some touring musicians I like to see if I can pick up any slots on their tour to get exposure (if only a few local gigs as they pass through).

So I'm ramping up to throw a lot of work behind it and see where it goes while I'm still young. I figured I can always program when I'm older, but music, well I have already burnt up a few years of my youth with coding.

So ideally I would like to be able to cut a pretty damn good album or demo in my studio. I also compose some music that is more game | film oriented and plan on doing more of that, outside rock. But I'm not looking to record anyone else, hell I have GB's of music that I want to expand and develop and that is on top of the new stuff, so even if 5/6 of it is crap I'll be plenty busy for a while with my own music. Usually I start with one component and build upon that a track at a time, the only expect ion is live recordings at which point I can see getting up to 16 or so channels. Though I haven't done any serious mixing, and what I do is mostly in the sequencer, and I use my 16ch board as a router for my current 8 channels of audio. So far I haven't in grained any system too deep. I could setup and record songs in Logic and switched to Cubase and I can do the same a know a bit more about it, but by far a master or using it all. So if I'm going to switch again I want to do it soon.

I know that in the end the gear doesn't mean shit. I like NIN for instances and trent reznor did the first album(or at least the demo, don't know if they re-recorded or just mixed and mastered his stuff?) which I love, and all that was done with a AppleIIe, MiniMoog and 808 and, an Emax mainly, from what I read. But again NIN, and yourself, and metallica and Don Davis (a movie composer I like, matrix etc) just about everyone is on a Mac and ProTools. I know its a sign of making it, but it must also be a great combination.

So what the deal is with ProTools? I got to play around with a ProTools system a bit, but recording just one or two tracks I couldn't tell it any differences from any other Sequencers. Like any powerful system I'm assuming that it won't look any different from Cubase or Logic until you start throwing a lot of audio and plug-ins at it. From reading the docs it looks like it allows massive numbers of audio tracks and plug-ins without using many CPU cycles or memory so the Host machine only has to process the ProTools TDM software. Is that about right? I think the main difference is the DSP, where my Terratec keeps the audio load off my computer all of my plug-ins on processed on the host while with ProTools that is all done on the HD's DSP chips?

What are you thoughts on ProToolsLE? I'm guessing it isn't much better then most of the gear out in the price range. After reading up, the RTAS plug-ins use Host cpu just like the Cubase or Logic plug-ins so it looks like that 002 Rack is just like any other 8in8out box. Like a small version of the 192IO, just an audio interface lacking any of the HD processing power.

Btw 3 songs on billboard charts, which ones? Are you a producer? Happen to be around the Los Angles area?

I own both platforms, in my opinon audio/midi/video are totally integrated into the Mac OS, The OS is transparent it never gets in the way.

From my experience you have to have more technical knowledge to keep a PC DAW up and running. More tweaking and upfront research is required.

I gave up trying to run SX on my Macs, it has the worst performance of all the Mac DAWS, I didin't get any joy from SX until I put it on my PC. So if you want to go with Steinberg it's best done on a PC.

Because of the integration all plugins are at system level and available to all audio and video apps that support Core Audio.

In the end it comes down to the software, the software I prefer for audio /video is Mac-only.