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Posted by: nickdaum Sat 8 Oct 2005, 13:15

My current hard and soft:
Mac G5 dual
M-Audio FireWire Solo
GarageBand
Audacity

I'm not a professional musician and don't intend to be. I just want to start singing and playing guitar Blues on my own as a retirement hobby.
Instead of using loops for the drums and bass backing I would like to use actual recordings of my favorite musicians as karaokes. Is it possible to remove both voice and guitar from a recording? If so how?

Secondary question, a little off topic: I need to buy an electric guitar, not too expensive, possiblly second hand.
As a matter of fact I'll stick to a slow tempo, like Blues does, so I don't need a "fast" guitar. I don't care about the look or the shape since I find them all ugly whether Strato or LesPaul or whatever. I don't care about accessing the highest treble notes.
I care only usability and sound.

What are the specs I should put on my list? Any brand you would recommend?

TIA

Nick

Posted by: coldharbour Sat 8 Oct 2005, 16:21

Not really. More discussion about it http://www.macmusic.org/agora/forums/?act=ST&f=8&t=19323&lang=EN&

Posted by: nickdaum Sat 8 Oct 2005, 23:06

What do you mean "not really" ;-)
is it possible a little, not at all, else? ;-)

That's what I feared anyway. I suppose it's a technological challenge to identify instruments and voices.

What solution would you suggest in order to play with some backing if you don't have a "live" drummer or bass player who want to partner with you.
I'm kind of a loner so I have to rely on myself but I would like to have some backing, not too mechanical if possible.

Nick

Posted by: gonechan Sun 9 Oct 2005, 05:29

hi


well there's is a way to get the vocals 'faded' but you'll have to trade that with sound quality and not always works.there's a little app that can take the middle part of a stereo file away by changing the phase on both sides cancelling the center ,so the vocals will dissapear(if they're placed in the middle) but all the reverb and choruses will remain(supposing they're panned on the sides,the standard way).
the app is called Amazing Slowdowner and is a very inexpensive shareware,you can also as it's name suggests slowdown tracks without changing pitch,ideal to copy solos and stuff like that.
mmm,guitars ,it's a very deep topic indeed.it all depends on your budget,tipe of sound you're looking after(even within blues!).i recomend you to get a decent guitar ,something that you can play for long time,that will remain tuned ,and most of all that you'll feel a connection with(this is not a new age comment!).
a Fender Stratocaster is a good guitar ,versatile ,easy to play(this can be fixed by taking it to a luthier to calibrate it,but not always) .a second hand guitar is definitely something that you can check and rely on( the older the better) since the wood becomes mature and wont bend,check that the electronics are good ,that it's got good pickups.
good luck!

Posted by: Luke Davison Sun 9 Oct 2005, 06:57

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.mtu.com/testimonials/vocal-eliminator-users.htm

Vocal remover software...this is one, there's a few out there.

Posted by: zrobert Sun 9 Oct 2005, 09:13

Hi nickdaum,
This is what I use. A Maestro Rhythm King MRK-2. I can plug it into an old Vox powered amplifier, or I can plug it into my Digi 002 Rack. It’s easy to operate; you can pick out a Latin style, Swing, March or Waltz. Turn a knob for your volume and tempo, step on a foot pedal and play away! Years ago they called the rhythm machines “Sideman”. I played piano. It took the place of having to have a bass or drummer for a small job that was stretching just to hire a piano player. These rhythm styles are probably outdated for your taste, but if you could find a rhythm machine with the beats that you like, you’d have that rhythm backing your looking for.
Just an idea.

zrobert

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/ar/m/mae/mrk2.html

Posted by: halidom Sun 9 Oct 2005, 10:21

Hi
If you check out pure-mac.com in the Audio or Music section, I'm sure I saw a program for removing any instument or voice from a sound track. Can't remember the name, sorry. They have other programs you might like.

Posted by: nickdaum Sun 9 Oct 2005, 14:39

gonechan sez:

> well there's is a way to get the vocals 'faded' but you'll have
>to trade that with sound quality
That’s OK with me, I am loud enough ;-)
It’s for practice and what I need it the recording ‘sound and feel’ to help me getting in the mood.
Many Blues recordings are of a rather mediocre quality anyway.

About Amazing Slowdowner I checked the Roni Music site but it doesn’t mention any karaoke or fading function. Slowing down may help me keeping with the tempo though ;-)

Thanks for tips and advices.


Luke Davison sez:

>Vocal remover software...this is one, there's a few out there.

This one as well as most of the other ones I found are Windows apps. My issue is that I would like to remove guitar too.

Thanks anyway. Tips and links are always good since it may lead to something else which fits you needs.


zrobert sez:

>This is what I use. A Maestro Rhythm King MRK-2

I would rather not use a hardware solution. My purpose is to use actual recordings as backings. But I suppose I should forget about removing or fading specific instruments.

Thanks for your feedback.


halidom sez:

>If you check out pure-mac.com in the Audio or Music section…

Thanks for this very interesting site I didn’t know yet. It’s good to know the softs are for the Mac while most of the time the platform is not mentioned at all (which usually means is Windows only).
Yet I didn’t find what I looked for so far. I’ll have a closer look later.

Thank you all for your input

Nick

Posted by: ronaldl Sun 9 Oct 2005, 15:28

Hi Nick,

I just thought I'd add my 2¢ to all the excellent suggestions you've gotten.

First of all, Amazing Slow Downer does indeed have a karaoke funtion. Download the free demo. Also, you might consider a MIDI player. MIDI files are readily available for just about any song out there and allow you to remove any unwanted tracks. Any given MIDI file is only as good as the musician who created it, however, and you may not care for the quality of the built-in QT sounds.

If you were interested in a back-up band application, as opposed to favorite artist recordings, I would strongly recommend checking out Band-In-A-Box: http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.pgmusic.com/band.htm. Again, download the free demo. It's very versatile, fun, and affordable.

Concerning the guitar, there are many options, but you just can't go wrong with a Strat. They sound great, they're rugged, and they're comfortable to play. You can get started in the $200-$400 range:

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=guitar/search/detail/base_pid/511681/
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=guitar/search/detail/base_pid/510000/

Good luck in your search. It sounds like you're going to enjoy your retirement.

Ron

Posted by: zrobert Sun 9 Oct 2005, 15:47

Another option is to check out a music store for James Aebersold’s Music Minus One tapes or disks. Can also "Google" him.

zrobert

Posted by: zrobert Sun 9 Oct 2005, 15:56

Correction; that's Jamey not James.

Posted by: nickdaum Mon 10 Oct 2005, 00:32

Hi Ron

I'll give a try at SlowDowner as you suggest.

The MIDI concept seems interesting. It's new to me. I don't have any MIDI device besides my Mac. However you can play MIDI files with audio apps.

My favorite musicians are John Lee Hooker, Otis Rush, T-Bone Walker, Luther Johnson, Pinetop Perkins, Champion Jack Dupree, Howlin' Wolf, Big Bill Broonzy, Jimmy Cotton, Johnny Copeland, Lightnin' Hopkins, to name a few and there a some specific songs I would like to play. Do you think I could find the MIDI files and where?

Thanks for the guitar recommendations. The only gimmicks I need are the instrument and a mike. I have a FireWire Solo and an excellent sound system.
BTW: a Mac + iTunes (when it doesn't mess around) + a FireWire Solo (or any other product of the line) = a super HIFI output, the best I ever plugged on my amplifier. I delivers the best analog sound I know.

If I had to purchase a sound system today I would go for some studio amplified speakers. But that's another story since what I have is almost perfect

Back to guitars. If I may ask you more questions:
* It's unclear for me how a guitar should be more fit for rock, blues or folk, etc. I understand when it comes to metal but is it absolutely relevant? Since I want to play just plain blues, are there guitars that will do the job really better and some that are not fit.
* I read you should chose rather double mikes rather than simple ones. I suppose the quality is important too, so how to know about it?
* What about brands like Ibanez, Yamaha, Gretsch or Cort?

Nick

Posted by: nickdaum Mon 10 Oct 2005, 01:00

Hi zrobert

I just checked Jamey Aebersold’s Music Minus One site. I couldn't believe I would come across so many stuff I like and I even didn't browse it entirely!

Good tip thanks.

However I often feel a little dummy on certain sites: what does the product exactly consists of. I understand there is a book. Is there a CD to be able to play along with? Certain sites seem to feel it's so self-evident they don't tell what they do like Ford doesn't need to say it manufactures cars.

Nick

Posted by: ronaldl Mon 10 Oct 2005, 03:04

Hi Nick,

If you'd like to try MIDI, after downloading Amazing Slow Downer try Sweet MIDI X from the same site. Then go here:

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://blues.mididb.com/

Click on John Lee Hooker or Howling Wolf, then option/click on the MIDI file you want to download. Next, launch Sweet MIDI X, click on MIDI>MIDI Set-up>Quicktime, then open the file you just downloaded and hit play. You'll see all the instruments on different tracks and can mute or turn down the guitars. There are lots of free MIDI files available; I would suggest Googling "blues MIDI files" for more. Part of the beauty of MIDI, by the way, is how easily you can change the key or tempo.

The Jamey Aebersold books do come with play-along audio CD's and are excellent, but I must warn you that they are jazz-oriented. If you don't mind that they're well worth a try.

Re: guitars, there are so many good options. (That's partly why we guitarists tend to become collectaholics.) Although on stage I've mostly favored a strat, I also own a Les Paul and an Ibanez Artist. The main difference sound-wise is single coil vs. humbucking pick-ups (think Stevie Ray vs. Allman Bros.) Also, there's solid body vs. hollow-body (strat or LP vs. Gibson ES-335.) Humbuckers give you a fatter sound, but beyond that it's really personal preference. SRV, Hendrix, Clapton, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray all play(ed) strats. B.B. King plays a hollow-body, while Gary Moore and The Allmans have favored Les Pauls. They all sound great. LP's are very heavy with more sustain, while strats are lighter with contoured bodies that are very comfortable to hold and play. You have to decide what's right for you. Whatever you get, you'll want to make sure you use fairly light gauge strings, e.g. 10-46, because you'll be doing a lot of string-bending playing the blues.

I hope this is of some help.

Ron

Posted by: zrobert Mon 10 Oct 2005, 09:15

I think you should take a few lessons. Jump in and get you feet wet with a teacher.
If you have good rapport with your teacher, follow his advice then go from there.

The best therapy and the most rewarding in the world is to be able to sit down with the instrument of your choice and play to your hearts content. All it takes is desire. If you have that, the rest will come!

zrobert

Posted by: rencelupato Tue 11 Oct 2005, 07:17

Hi Everyone,

I am a newbie here...and I am looking for Jean Claude Lupato...

Anyone who knows his email address and other details....

My name is Laurence Lupato
YM ID: rence_lupato

thanks!

Posted by: nickdaum Tue 11 Oct 2005, 13:24

Hi Ron

I had a look at the site and saw interesting stuff. I'll explore more in that direction.

Thanks for your advices about guiars. I played piano and sang as teenager, but never did since. I have a better feeling about guitar today than about piano. Yet I don't even know to tune one so it's difficult to go in a shop and try one to make my own opinion ;-)

When you are talking about strats and lespaul is it the marque or the type because they were imitated.
I don't like neither looks so I don't care about that aspect. It's like if I had to choose between Superman's outfit or Batman's. I'd rather go for jeans ans T-shirt ;-) Yet Superman's gear is probably quite comfortable (not to mention it allows you to fly).
If I get it right, it won't make a big difference for a beginner like me and blues is pretty much straightforward, using little effects anyway.

Thanks for your input


Hi Rob

I'll take lessons for sure.

As a matter of fact I'm always extremely slow and cautious when I have a project, trying to study all the options. I never go by my impulse when I have little clue about the matter. It proved rather productive so far. And I'm not in a rush anyway.

Nick

Posted by: nickdaum Sat 15 Oct 2005, 14:54

Hi all

More about electric guitars.
I went yesterday to a guitar shop. The guy advised me to start with an acoustic guitar in the first place.
I asked about electric ones anyway, saying that the shape or color didn't matter to me. He said an electric guitar is just a board with strings on it and that the only thing that matters is the mikes quality. That's what I suspected already.

Any thought about that? Which vendors have the best reputation in that respect?

TIA

Nick

Posted by: gonechan Sat 15 Oct 2005, 15:28

hi nick

well ,the sales person that told you that should be selling chips at the McDonalds rather than selling musical instruments i think.
there are many factors that make a guitar's sound,for example the type of wood it is made from,if the parts are glued toghether or are screwed,and of course the pickups ,but the pickups basically amplify the results of the above.a guitar made with bad quality materials will never have a good,stable tone ,it will never be in tune.
now about getting an acoustic guitar first,it all depends ,if you intend to just ply the electric i don't see the point on getting one ,but if you're also interested in playing diferent sounds and styles ,is better to go first with an acoustic(spanish guitar) and learn some classical music on it ,it will make the perspective on things a lot wider and you'll learn the proper way of positioning your hands,wrists and how to control the instrument in many ways.
maybe to have a clearer perspective ,it will be helpful to contact you're future teacher(if you have one) and consult him .
good luck!

Posted by: nickdaum Sat 15 Oct 2005, 16:47

Hi

It seems the guy is not for the electric thing.
My intent is to plays blues. I don't like classical spanish music that much and it seems it needs virtuosity I doubt I'll be ever able to achieve.
I like the slow tempo in blues and an electric guitar seems to me more suited to get the sound you find usually in blues.

Of course the downside is that it needs a lot of hardware around to make it work. You can't just sit somewhere and play. I saw some guitar can have a headset plugged directly into it though.

Nick

Posted by: gonechan Sat 15 Oct 2005, 17:45

hi nick


then what i would recommend you is,a strat(it can be either a Fender or it's economic line called Squire) or a 335(again could be a real Gibson or it's economic line ,Epiphone.335 are hollow body guitars,BB King stylee) ,a small valve amp and you'll be ready to go.i bought myself a guitar amp last month ,a small 15w Orange amp ,and i saw many amps on that range that are very cheap and good sounding.if you want something that you can carry around anywhere ,i recommend you a Pignose amp ,they're pretty small and powerfull with a great tone as well!you should also look into some kind of distortion/sustain pedal to use as a booster on the amp, this will make that bluesy sound happen,but this is not really necessary if the amp delivers a nice overdrive.
i discard the Les Paul models for blues,because i see it more as a jazz guitar .

Posted by: Luke Davison Sun 16 Oct 2005, 09:44

Blues? Strat with a Fender amp, Super Reverbs are the nicest ones, Bassman amps are great too, Twin if you want a brighter tone....

Posted by: Luke Davison Sun 16 Oct 2005, 10:32

Get yerself an Ibanez Tube Screamer, too....all the great blues guys use one....SRV, etc....

Posted by: Luke Davison Sun 16 Oct 2005, 10:35

Trust me...i've played professionally on the blues circuit for the past 20 years....don't get technical, get tone-wise....

Posted by: geezzerrock Sun 16 Oct 2005, 16:40

I agree with the Fender or Squier suggestion. I'd also suggest that you read some of the very excellent posts on the Fender Forum. www.fenderforum.com.
I recently got back into guitar after 35 years away, I bought a Squier 51. great starteer giutar at a good price.

Posted by: nickdaum Sun 16 Oct 2005, 19:56

Thanks for all the inputs, folks!

Actually, not being a professional, I'm often puzzled by the jargon used here. So far for me an amp is an electronic device that needs speakers. I looked the Ibanez "amps" and all of them are combos. I already own a complete, excellent sound system plugged on my sound interface. It's not meant for stage performance but the complete system delivers a perfect sound. I don't plan to play on stage anyway. I leave that to you, folks ;-) It'll be a hobby for me.

My plan was to plug the guitar directly on the FW Solo 1/4" input. When I travel I'll plug a headset.

I concur with Luke about not being too technical.

I looked at the Quier and Epiphone catalogs. Most are out of my budget. Moreover I saw Yamahas with better specs for the same price (3 mikes including 2 double loop, for example).
What about a Yam or an Ibanez? The entry level models with good specs are around $250-300.

Remember I’m not a professional and I plan to play alone ;-)

Nick

Posted by: gonechan Sun 16 Oct 2005, 21:10

hi again nick!

well ,actually for that kind of money you should be able to get a second hand strat,sorry for insisting ,but those are blues guitars ,is fair to say that yamaha and ibanez guitars are also good,but for my point of view ,they don't compare with a strat ,unless you're a metal player(which is not the case of course).
and the amp,mmm,we could say that you can skip that bit ,but as i see it ,the amp is one of the most important pieces when it comes to play the guitar,it shouldn't be considered as a mere amplifier with a speaker ,it should be considered a musical instrument as well.for 300$ you definitely can get a Squire strat and a small 10w amp ,second hand of course.

Posted by: dwwave Sun 16 Oct 2005, 21:25

IMO learning on a electric is much easier and much more enjoyable

There are alot of lower priced electrics out there(depends on your price point)

Some of the PRS SE models are dropping in price ($400 range
and you can get single coil models or humbuckers (I prefer humbuckers to avoid 60 cycle hum)

Fender's Squire range offers alot options (telecaster custom or deluxe for under $200.00) same with the stratocasters(Squire)

Epiphone (owned bu Gibson) has a wide variety of guitar, alot are
Korean or Indonesian built copies of Gibson's for very low prices.

Dean Guitars has some models for $100-150

Yamaha Pacifica has been rated the best under $200.00 guitar for

5 years straight, its Strat like 3 single coil pick-ups this one
may be a good choice without quality concerns

Jay Turser has some real low priced enty level models

you can check quailty user reviews on Harmony-Central.com

For a nice amp a Vox Pathfinder is a real nice amp for about $100-
$125.00 I have one and its 15 watts, it can also drive a external
4x12 cab!

Some of Line 6 new amps are in the under $300 range and offer
different amp models, effects , cool stuff

Hope this helps and Good Luck!

Posted by: nickdaum Wed 19 Oct 2005, 03:13

Hi

My message has got strange chars at each inverted commas and is difficult to read. I hope this version will be more readable (same text).

Hi folks

Thanks for keeping giving me your inputs.

Since I have no elements to make my own opinion I�fm very interested in whatever you say. It helps a lot. I was completely clueless, now I�fm a little less clueless ;-)
I did the same before I bought my Firewire Solo. With my Mac and my sound system it makes a perfect match. The help of savvy people is invaluable :-)

Let�fs say I want the same kind sound as Howlin�f Wolf�fs, Hooker�fs, Luther Johnson�fs (Luther "Georgia Boy (snake)"Johnson, I�fm nuts about �eLonesome in my bedroom�f record) or Otis Rush�fs:
* should I forget about Yamaha or Ibanez?
* is there only Fender or Gibson and their subsidiaries that sound that way?
* is an amp necessary? what an amp is supposed to add by the way? remember I have an M-Audio Firewire Solo sound interface to plug the guitar and the mike on.

I�fve been looking at overdrives on BEHRINGER�fs site. I didn�ft check other vendors yet. What do you think about stuff like such products, which are dirt cheap?

This one is supposed to be dedicated to the blues:
Blues Overdrive BO100
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.behringer.com/BO100/index.cfm?lang=ENG
but what are the Level and Tone controls supposed to add to the ones existing on all guitars? Is it the Gain that makes the difference as well as the pedal?

This other one is the same price with different controls and apparently a different purpose:
Overdrive/Distortion OD100
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.behringer.com/OD100/index.cfm?lang=ENG


What about something a little more expensive but with lots of options:
Modeling Amp/Multi-Effects Processor with Integrated Expression Pedal X V-AMP
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.behringer.com/X-V-AMP/index.cfm?lang=ENG

According to the user�fs manual:
the X V-AMP features 100 user-rewritable presets, each consisting of 7 ingredients:

1. amp simulation
2. speaker simulation
3. pre-amp effects (noise gate, compressor, Wah Wah)
4. adjustable presence and bass EQs,
5. modulation effect (e.g. phaser, chorus etc.)
6. delay effect
7. reverb

Isn�ft it all what a blues player is supposed to have? ;-) I don�ft get the meaning of every item but I�fll read the manual more closely ;-)

The first two can fit in your pocket, the last in a bag. Isn�ft it the kind of stuff that would do the job instead of a bulky amp including a speaker?
They would fit into my already existing chain system, between the guitar and the interface, while combos would add another branch.

Just another stupid question: wouldn�ft that make sound any guitar the way you like (provided it has the correct quality)?
Yet another one: what about double coil mikes Vs. simple coil? and 2 Vs. 3 mikes?

TIA

Nick

Posted by: lepetitmartien Wed 19 Oct 2005, 05:18

Mhmm nickdaum you just won the award of the most original encoding error. Never seen this one before.

Double check your encoding in your navigator. It should be on ISO-8859-1. Some users have issues on the forum and we can't track the reason, so if you can post in the Macmusic forum help section about this (computer, OS, browser, encoding) i'd be very interested.

Posted by: gonechan Wed 19 Oct 2005, 05:49

hi nick!



well ,i thiunk you'll probably get many different answers regarding guitars ,is a very personal thing,imagine that some people love more their axes than their wives
in my opinion ,as i expressed before ,is that you'll need a guitar ,like a Stratocaster,an amp(preferably tube ridden) and a cable to connect them.
why an amp? it's the tone ,you can get the new 'PLUGMEICANDOANYTHING'effect ,but nothing compares to a real tube amp ,more if you're intend to play blues ,guitar+overdriven tube amp is the sound you're looking for.most amps,like the low range Fenders come with a spring reverb and an effect loop which will let you output the signal to your audio interface.
let's say that an amp is the other half of your guitar.
(gotta work,will continue later)

Posted by: nickdaum Thu 20 Oct 2005, 01:01

Neither did I ;-)

When I have a rather long text to write I use Word instead of the small editor field. It's the first time it happens. I hope it won't.

Nick

Posted by: nickdaum Thu 20 Oct 2005, 01:43

Hi gonechan

I've been looking around a little. There are many vendors, all of them with a tube-like stuff but apparently without a real tube.
Ibanez has a cool site where you can listen to mp3 samples from its dozens of pedals. Yerk!!
I am sorry if some people like it but whatever I heard is just not my cup of tea.
I need a fairly straightforward sound and I'll be content with a reasonably good result.

If I get it right, you don't seem to be impressed by the multi-effect BEHRINGER X V-AMP.
It has tons of good reviews on the Musicianfriends site, lots of them from people playing Blues, Rock or Jazz, the kind of music the closest from what I want to do.

Would you say you could use a jazz oriented guitar and make it sound bluesy with an amp?

Nick