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Posted by: keybie Sun 16 Oct 2005, 14:54

I've decided to get a 15" Powerbook and am awaiting to see if Apple will be releasing an updated version next week in case I'll probably get a better machine for the same price as now

The machine will be used for everyday stuff like email, web etc. but also for video editing (iMovie, Final cut express or whatever I find to be usable for editing home videos in a respectable manner). And since I'm a serious hobby musician I'd like to use it for audio/MIDI as well, with internal soft-samplers (possibly also some soft-synths even though I suffice with my external MIDI gear), effects etc. Haven't decided what kind of software to settle for as I'm very new to all of this, but have been suggested to try out the various demo versions when I finally get my Mac.

But getting to the point of this posting: I most likely need a large and fast external hard drive for this, so I need to figure out:

1) Which hard drive should I buy?
and
2) Which external enclosure should I buy?

I don't know anything about which specs I should be looking for, but I do definitely want a silent running drive, that's for sure! I've had computers in the past which sould like vacuum cleaners, and I assure you: it's not much fun trying to be creative with that sort of environment!

As for the enclosure. Apart from ventilating the drive well enough (I've read that some enclosures have no fan, even though they claim that their design is uniquely made and do give sufficent cooling I'm a little sceptical, though still open to the idea if it proves to be correct) it should look good.

Having searched around the web almost in vain (most enclosures look pretty cheesy, tacky and geeky in my opinion. I'm looking for something that looks a little more stylish and "pro") I believe I've found something that is usable:

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.macpower.com.tw/products/hdd3/pleiades/pd_scombo

Anyone know of other "pro looking" drive enclosures?


Although I'll probably buy the "Superdrive" version of the Powerbook I might actually get an external DVD-writer later on, to save on tear and wear, and possibly higher specs as well, so getting an enclosure for the hard drive that'll match one for the DVD writer would be great!
Perhaps there's an enclosure style that is delivered for both devices?
If possible, I'd like to stack them on top of each other.

As for interfacing, what should I go for? Firewire 400? 800? USB?
What about for the external DVD-writer?

A practial issue: it would be nice not to have an external power supply ("wall wart"), but a built-in power supply in the enclosure itself, but this seems not to be the trend, so I might have to give in here.

Suggestions, comments?

Posted by: Narayan Sun 16 Oct 2005, 16:09

Hi,
I recently bought a 17"powerbook G4 1.6Gig. I am also a very new customer to this Mac business and have been a serious music composer for the past 13 years only with PCs using softwares like Cakewalk and Sonar.
Now to your questions. I would rather buy a mac with a built in DVD writer than go for an external one, as it already takes hell of a time to write a movie file to a DVD (even when inbuilt). What ever External HDD or enclosue you buy, go only for fire wire devices (6 pin or 9pin), as, USB drives may be painfully slow.

The bundled software comes with a decent composer software called Garrageband, but not for serious or professional composers. For more flexibility and creativity, you may use Logic express (the toned down version) or Logic pro (the full version) depending on your budget. But really speaking, Mac does not have much software for creating MIDI music.
The bundled video capture/editing software (i-movie) is also a fairly decent editing software and would be more than sufficient for home movies. BUt again, it all depends on what you really want to do with your computer. Hope this information has been useful. Narayanan

Posted by: lancet Sun 16 Oct 2005, 17:16

first , no hard drive is silent. you just can't spin something at 7200 rpm without some noise.

the best you'll do is fairly quite.

having said that, you should look for an enclosure without a fan. preferably FW800

most of the current crop of 7200 rpm HD's should work out just fine.

hitachi has no sound specification the generic fact sheet, just "Low acoustic levels"

seagate lists acoustic performance as 2.5 bel

maxtor states acoustic performance as 2.5 bel/3.0 bel seek

Western digital lists acoustics this way...
Idle Mode 7 34 dBA
Seek Mode 0 7 36 dBA
Seek Mode 3 7 35 dBA

i got these numbers from www.otherworldcomputing.com, who links to the manufacturers fact sheets .

good luck

Posted by: lancet Sun 16 Oct 2005, 17:33

this has an eSATA port on it, the powerbook does not. the best specification that applies here is for FW800. (Firewire 800 (1394b) up to 800Mbps (100MB/s)

I don't know how much it costs but if you're paying a premium for the eSATA feature that you can't use with your powerbook you may want look elsewhere

It also requires a SATA drive. the price differences are not great between SATA and ATA so that may not be an issue.

again, with your powerbook, you would not get any benefit from a SATA drive vs. an ATA drive.

it sure is pretty though!!!

Posted by: keybie Mon 17 Oct 2005, 08:46

I really don't know much about these things, so I must have picked the wrong enclosure. The good news is that they have several versions of this enclosure. Here's http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.macpower.com.tw/products/hdd3/pleiades/.

Does anyone know any more about these drive enclosures?
By the way, can they be placed flat so that another drive can be stacked on top of it, or does it only go sideways with the stand that we see in the photo?

As for the drives: Should I look for any "IDE ATA" drive and use a FireWire 800 interfaced enclosure?

Posted by: lepetitmartien Mon 17 Oct 2005, 17:52

Keybie, i've got 3x800+ and 2x400 of these for more than a year now.

Great stuff, but choose really silent drives they make great amplifiers of noise these
Also the blue led is rather harsh for the eyes so don't put them in front of you.

The stand is part of the enclosure but can be removed, it helps leave some air around (they need it as there's no fan), it can be possible to stack them using a bit of DIY but I'm don't think it's a good idea temperature wise. this way they never go hotter than about 40-50°C here, which is good.

Right now, FW800 has no real advantage over FW400, a bit faster only. If you want the real mojo, go for eSATA with SATA drives and an eSATA card. On the drive itself, keep on seagate if you can.

Posted by: syncr Mon 17 Oct 2005, 23:48

Heya...

I also have 3 of these. 2 of the 800 models, and 1 of the 400...
I previously had one of the MacPowr Ice cases, which were sealed in closed plastic.

I'm ok with the drives, but as mentioned above, they are not quiet. The 3 drives turned on are louder than my G5, but to their defence, I opted to go with less expensive WD drives since I use these mainly for archival purposes . Compared to the Rocstor drives (which have an internal PSU), the MacPowr are much louder. The Rocstors are sooper quiet, but they don't sell just the enclosure. =(

If I had my choice, I would not buy these again. Only because with each purchase in a studio environment, I aim to buy quieter when possible.

Posted by: lepetitmartien Tue 18 Oct 2005, 02:08

The enclosure themselves are not noisy, there's no fan, the drives in them are. And the metal case tend to amplify. So the quieter the drive the better. It may be possible to limit the amplification with some rubber, but I didn't try it.

The enclosure I had before were pure crap, noisy, with a fan, and couldn't even cool a drive correctly. So these ones just rock!

Posted by: syncr Tue 18 Oct 2005, 20:59

Right...good point.
I should clarify that it is the materials of the case as it ships that seem to be more resonant and less quiet than the plastic sealed FW enclosure I had before. The metal sleeve contacts the housing all over the place, so it would be difficult to modify these to make them quieter. I've never owned a FW case with a fan, so my comparision is simply with MacPowr's earlier enclosure style. Still, I'm inclined to purchase enclosures that transfer less noise in the future.

FWIW, I have these three drives on a rack shelf, sitting on a rubber mat, behind a custom clear plastic front panel. A pretty nifty setup, but having them in an isolation rack would be more effective. Fun project though...

All that being said, these are among the best of what is out there.

Posted by: keybie Wed 19 Oct 2005, 21:07

Well they did it again, and it was worth waiting for: Apple released new Powerbooks with better specs at a lower price! I noticed among many features that the 15" model now has optical audio ports as well, which will come in handy for use with my Minidisc recorder.
So this is the one I'm going for -the 15" Powerbook that is
But like with any brand new electronic item I'm going to wait a few weeks to see if there are any production faults or shortcomings that need to be adressed.

Back to hard-drive enclosure: does the enclosure vibrate, thus causing the additional noise? Could the drive be fastened with special screws instead of the normal ones? I've heard of screws (or some sort of fastening solution) made of vibration-damping rubber etc.

The blue LED sounds irritating. Like I said earlier, I'm looking for an enclosure that gives a professional look, and a "Christmas tree" decoration isn't it. I'm sure I can easily exchange it to another LED with less intensity (and another colour if needed), or remove it altogether.

The Roctor drives seem good. I like that they have internal power supplies (are they the only ones that do?), but I don't quite their looks, and I'd like to pick my own drive (once I figure out which one to go for).

Posted by: lepetitmartien Wed 19 Oct 2005, 22:50

Anyway, there will certainly be delays on powerbooks during the time has to catch up the demand.

Posted by: hotlunch Thu 20 Oct 2005, 00:45

I just recorded a show last weekend with my 15' 1.5 g4, motu828 using a lacie firewire400. The things been great. ONe of the drunken band members nocked it on to a hardwood floor and the thing survied. I also us it at home for recording and have never had any nosie bleed even with my large condensors cranked up. looks slick and small. I usualy tuck it behind my g4 and forget to turn it off sometimes because its so smooth.

Posted by: keybie Sat 22 Oct 2005, 16:53

Thanks for all the comments everybody!

Getting an enclosure that fills all my needs looks to become a hard job unfortunately
The "Pleiades" (or whatever it's called -the same enclosure seems to go under several brand and model names) looks very good in my opinion, but the noise-factor is very important as well, so hearing about how "open" the design of it is (probably because of the lacking fan) makes me highly sceptical.

However, I came across http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.slipsonic.com/index.php?id=101, which shows all the different drive enclosures that have that G5 Powermac design.

The http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-RAID.cfm from "G-tech" looks very sturdy, stylish and professional, but is a bit bulky for a single drive, and like the majority of enclosures it uses an external power-adapter. And as far as I can see you can only buy it with a drive, which is a pity since I want to hand-pick the drive mechanism to ensure I get the quietest and best performing drive.

Moving on there's the http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.macpower.com/DualG_1.html from MacPower, which is also a bit bulky for a single drive, and again it uses an external power supply.

Mac upgrades' http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2598#top comes in different sizes. The single-drive enclosure only has Firewire 400, but from what I've been told earlier (in this thread? Can't remember), a Firewire 800 drive isn't of much use on a Powerbook anyway. Still, the single-drive case looks a bit weird, so there's a http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2598#top. Unfortunately, they both use external power supplies as the rest.

Personally, I think that the http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/1394/USB/EliteAL/ looks the most attractive. They're not too bulky and can be stacked on top of each other. They also claim to be "very quiet". They're sold either with drives (above) or http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/1394/USB/EliteAL/. Again, they utilise external power supplies.

So, anyone have any experiences with any of these?
Note: I'm not specifically looking for a "G5 Powermac" matching enclosure (this will be for a 15" Powerbook), but everything else I've come across seems so geeky and silly looking to me, and the enclosures I've referred to seem a little more "pro" looking to me. But if there are other enclosure out there that look "pro" I'm definitely interested. Particularly if there are matching cases which can room a DVD-writer.

Posted by: Lotus17 Fri 4 Nov 2005, 20:30

Heya. I sorta skimmed through this entire thread and didn't read a lot of details, but I would like to share my experience.

I bought a 160GB Seagate at 7200 RPM and 8MB Cache. I threw it in one of those Pleiades cases and it works wonders. I use the FW800 feature and I definately like the speeds that I achieve with it. Like people say, you aren't going to get a silent drive, but I definately threw mine on the floor away from a lot of things, and I barely hear it. If I pay close attention, then yeah, but if you can put it in a remote location then that rocks. I would definately look into the chipsets that come in all of these enclosures. I know that the Oxford 922 (FW800/FW400/USB2.0) and the 911 (FW400/USB2.0) are really good ones. The studios at here Ball State University, use the Icecube FW800/FW400 enclosures along with the whole Glyph Key system. They work really well. So, I would definately suggest something with the Oxford 922 chipset. Good luck with the whole search!

Posted by: keybie Fri 4 Nov 2005, 21:14

Oops! My mistake.
I gave the wrong link. I meant the
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.macpower.com.tw/products/hdd3/pleiades/pd_800plus.

However, I've been leaning more towards one of the OWC (Other World Computing) enclosures. The single-drive http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MEFW912UAL1/ enclosure looks very similar to the MacPower Pleiades, but the front is a little different (and better looking in my opinion).

Then there's the http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MEFW912AL2/ enclosure from OWC.

If it's possible to use that same enclosure for two separate drives then it might come in handy for later if I buy a second drive of the same size for backing up the first drive, but I don't know if this is possible.
Alternatively I would have to buy a second single-drive enclosure, which would mean yet another power adapter and Firewire cables....
(I read http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.atpm.com/11.10/mercury-elite.shtml for that enclosure, but there was no mention of using it in other ways than a RAID setup).

Posted by: lepetitmartien Sat 5 Nov 2005, 07:43

beware some of these enclosure consider the drives as one, so RAID is mandatory (RAID 0 stripping as far as I've seen, not RAID 1 mirroring) so read closely the techtalk.

Posted by: keybie Sat 5 Nov 2005, 13:49

Hmmm.... that was what i was afraid of
Ultimately i was hoping that I could put two drives into that single enclosure, have them act as two separate drives, and even have one switch on with the help of the enclosure's power-switch while the other one (the backup drive) can be turned on/off from the computer (so as to save tear/wear, and also make less noise).

But I understand that the recommended way to go about this is to buy a second enclosure for that backup drive then?

Posted by: lepetitmartien Sun 6 Nov 2005, 06:00

I think it's a better move, that's my use too. The enclosure I've seen are either RAID minded, or have evil fans to make some noise. Also, I've never seen one enclosure for 2 drives where you could switch one off while other is on.

I have 5 drives near the computer, but only 2 are on most of the time.

Remember too that it's to switch on/off an IDE drive which kills it in the end.

Posted by: keybie Sun 6 Nov 2005, 09:11

With my Atari ST computer I've experienced that it is indeed possible to "power down" a drive (at least SCSI drives), so that's why I got that idea that there might be a "soft power-switch" option in IDE.
But perhaps there's no "default power-off" option available, even by setting the drive jumpers in a specific way?

5 drives!! Does that make a lot of noise in the end? Why so many drives?

You mean switching on/off drives will kill them in the end?
Hmmm... that makes me think... perhaps, even IF it's possible to turn a drive on and off via software commands, the drive must have power applied to it somehow, only not to the drive motor, so it doesn't spin.
Still, it's not very common for the drive electronics to fail, is it? I thought it was mostly due to mechanical tear/wear.

Apart from the issue of only having a single AC power adapter and only one Firewire cable when using a RAID enclosure I was thinking that a built-in fan would be reassuring. I've been told elsewhere that I should never use a hard drive in a fanless enclosure for more than 30 minutes at a time because the heat buildup will kill it in the end.
Then again I see so many fanless enclosures around which makes me wonder if they're fine anyway. I'm pretty confused in other words

The RAID enclosure from OWC has a built in fan, and according to http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.atpm.com/11.10/mercury-elite.shtml it's a quiet fan.