Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
440 Forums _ Pre-Mastering and Mastering _ Mastering/pre-mastering On Computer
Posted by: lepetitmartien Sat 27 Jul 2002, 10:11
ioGirl Jul 21 2002, 21:53
When there's a need, I slice and dice audio in Recycle.
But yes, I'm looking for a complete solution.
I'm happy with my setup except where it comes to mastering.
I've got MegaZigaGigs of songs that I'd like to mater. I suspect that the problem is more so my skill level but if you personaly know of a software that makes the process more intuitive, let it know that I'm out to get it and that i'll probably even give it a bad name.
I came across Sonic Studio but don't have much info on it. Pyramix and others as well, but they're all PC apps.
Is this all overkill and should I just master the mastering skills, or will a software package really make a difference?
Yukulele Jul 22 2002, 21:22
But you can do pretty cool pre-masterings ;-)
Have a look to T-Racks (from ik-multimedia) for an integrated solution, or look at some articles about multi-band compression and dynamic eqs, and play with the nuendo vst plugins, or others.
What's needed here is a good hear.
damann Jul 23 2002, 06:57
ioGirl: you say you use nuendo for midi and vocals. on this basis, logic, cubase, and performer are a more logical choice of application.
whenever i've used cubase it's crashed, that's why i use logic!
logic and dp have some GREAT mastering plugins. T-racks is also very good, if you're gentle with it!
Yukelele is right, ultimately, your "master" will be as good as your "ears".
at the end of the day, what works for YOU, works for you...
ioGirl Jul 23 2002, 17:20
Now have T-Racks. Will cover all the nuances of it. May be back to pester you guys.
Will look into multi-band compression and dynamic eqs.
Now, about a good set of ears...where can I pick up a pair at a good price?
damann Ecrit le Jul 27 2002, 05:20
(sorry lpm, also too lazy right now!)
(spank spank spank)
in the mean time, you should set aside an hour or two to checkout uaudio.com. there IS a good book, a friend has it, i'll get the name for you...
Now you can digress ok
Posted by: damann Sun 28 Jul 2002, 19:11
there are five main points here.
parametric eq...especially in the 12k kind of range.
a little peak limiting or as they call it, "brick wall compression".
stereo widening, be careful, check the mix in mono!
soft clipping (which is a type of digital compression) to make your mix LOUDER than anybody elses'
multi band, frequency concious compression, if you really want to "fry" the mix.
i get the feeling that this thread is 'gonna be popular, so i won't bother elaborating yet.plenty more to say...
Posted by: ioGirl Wed 31 Jul 2002, 06:28
um...why is everything in French?
Posted by: ioGirl Wed 31 Jul 2002, 06:42
2 Questions:
1. Why is "Mastering" in hardware? Can it not be done correctly with software?
2. Can you guys list what it is that "Makes a Mix" (What makes a particular genre) also does a Mastering Master usually work in a particular genre? If so, is this changing with all the remixing going on?
I hope this doesn't appear off topic but it would be cool to approach mastering by genre. You know touch on the subtleties.
(I know...basics first. Working on that. )
ioGirl
Posted by: lepetitmartien Wed 31 Jul 2002, 14:34
Teaser!
Posted by: Yukulele Sun 4 Aug 2002, 22:14
Maybe for a safest & traditionnal reason?
Theorically, with a high-end audio interface, and a strong computer, you sure could process as a Finalizer do. But i don't know of any software able to do this on the mac, do you? ie. dynamic filtering, etc.
TDM systems have such mastering plugins (names, someone?), but i never got a chance to "hear" them. Anyone here?
Maybe a dedicated real time mastering software for mac would be a hit?
Bye.
Posted by: Synthetic Tue 6 Aug 2002, 22:09
there is a group of plugins from Waves that should cover the whole spectrum of mastering and they come in VST and RTAS formats and they work on non-TDM systems. I have used them with ProTools LE. There is also a more simple solution called T-racks that will a lot of the same thing but without as much control and no spectrum analyzers... but it does help and is great for home hobbyist such as myself.
just throwing out some more info
Posted by: Yukulele Thu 8 Aug 2002, 16:30
Are you speaking of the master bundle? How do they sounds?
Bye.
Posted by: Synthetic Fri 16 Aug 2002, 22:02
Ya know... I am not sure if they are the mastering bundle or not. Let's just say they kinda worked their way into my computer but didn't come packaged with manuals etc. I have spectrum analyzers, limiters, compressors, imagers, phase correction, and few more for FX.
well... I am no recording engineer by far but they seem to sound good to me and they are reputable because I have read about a few PT studios who use them as well. They are expensive though. Almost as much as a good mastering hardware unit or units.
Posted by: Yukulele Sat 17 Aug 2002, 10:19
You're right, i've just read a post from a french mastering engineer on macmusic, and he confessed he was using the waves plugins on a pro-tools system to masterize famous french artists (no A/D or D/A conversion, the whole chain is digital).
So this makes me think that what is important here are good hears, experience, and taste...
Bye.
Posted by: ioGirl Tue 27 Aug 2002, 23:36
Thanks for all the info. Discovered that I have the waves demo...it was given out at an audio expo here in NY. It's definitely something to invest in.
A question to all the Mastering Pros:
What are the major Mastering Faux Pas to avoid?/the things that can make or break a mix?
ioGirl
Posted by: ioGirl Wed 28 Aug 2002, 02:17
"..Overall, Logic is the best software for me. But I still use Protools for the final touch. A lot is to with plugins and the algorithm..."
Above is a quote from the "best sequencer" Poll. There were many similar remarks about Pro Tools being the tool for Mastering....but if it's about plug-ins, does it matter if you're using Waves in PT or any other app?...or if you're using TDM plug-ins in PT or Logic?
ioGirl
Posted by: formatj Wed 28 Aug 2002, 06:12
I think the reason people talk about mastering in ProTools is because it use to have all the best plugins. Now with TC Powercore and Universal Audio UAD-1 cards and also some high end VST plugs (Waves, PSP etc...) it doesn't really have so much advantage.
I know some people who think that Pro Tools sounds better than Logic; different algorithms etc... I also know former ProTools preachers who have sold their systems and are now using Logic with RME gear and have never looked back.
Don't forget ProTools will obviously sound better with the TDM or HD versions (US$10000+) than with a Digi 001 with it's version of ProTools Software.
Mastering is an art in itself, having and knowing how to use the tools is of course necessary, however learning how to use your ears is the most important thing.
For some great value plugins (much cheaper than Waves) try http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.pspaudioware.com/
Some info on mastering.
beginner's guide to mastering at:
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.computermusic.co.uk/tutorial/mastering/mastering1.asp
and a guide by Bob Katz (The Secret of the Mastering Engineer) at
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.tcelectronic.com/static.asp?page=bob_katz
Matt
Posted by: rickenbacker Wed 28 Aug 2002, 11:42
Mastering software is like everything else with computer music - everyone has their favourite apps and any magic tool that gets universal approval and is coveted by everyone is likely to cost hundreds, maybe thousands, of pounds (or dollars or euros or whatever). The more people you ask, the more confused you can get!
The Waves plug-ins are well-regarded. I use them with Logic and I also use the T-Racks set, which is cheaper but still very good and easy to use (IMHO). For the money, both of these do a professional job to my ears.
I don't think it really matters what you use, to be honest. If it's at least halfway decent and you know how to use it and you've had a lot of practice with mastering your music, you'll get pleasing results.
Format's links are a good introduction to the subject and I'm sure there are thousands more out there. You could also try the book "Basic Mastering" by Paul White (Sanctuary Publishing, about £5) for a good explanation of what it is you should be doing.
If it sounds right, it IS right!
Posted by: Synthetic Wed 28 Aug 2002, 18:40
a lot of the mastering concept relies more on the mastering engineers ears than anything else. If you are like me and don't have any formal training in the sound world... you'll have to do a lot of trial-n-error to discover what works best for your music. I will throw in a few pointers I have picked up on the way that may help.
1) get a few CD's that you like the sound of and are familiar with (helps if they are in same genre as your music) and before even turning on your mastering setup... spend about 20 minutes listenig to the CD's on your system through the monitors. This well help you to learn what frequencies and levels should sound like as a guide.
2) if you have the ability... copy one of the tracks that best matches the sound of your music to your HD and pull it into your mastering session as another track. Then as you are mastering your music, refer to that commercial track as a reference and use it to guage the sound of your track. This will really help with gain levels so you know how hot to make the mix. It will also help you to hear if your mix is too muddy or too thin.
3) If you find yourself adding tons of compression or limiting to make your tracks sound louder... go back to the mix and try adjust levels to compensate and then return to mastering because if you compress too much or use too much brickwall limiting... the you lose a lot of the dynamics of your songs which makes them sound flat and 2D.
4) Spectrum analyzer is very useful for things that are hard to hear in the mix... many times it give a visual reference that is sometimes easier to work with. Also good to compare commercial tracks with your own using this as well.
There are hundreds of other tips out there that may be of use too... check the links posted by formatj or you can do some searching at www.prosoundwrb.com that may help you as well. Unfortumately, unless you work with many traditional instruments such as guitar, bass, and drums... some of the tutorials will leave you wondering how it relates to your music though.
Posted by: bigheaven Thu 29 Aug 2002, 09:42
If i'm mastering a bunch of songs for a CD i put the songs in toast or jam
and in the right order and create a disk immage.Then i open it up in Peak VST.The trak markers or index points are visible and i do fade ins @outs and time between songs all non destructve. I can also compare songs for continuity and level so as to get a feel and flow for the finished CD.I like Peak better than Logic for audio editing.The Waves plugs are great but dont overdo loudness. As a rule digital is the go for corrective eq and analogue for sweetening.I use an avalon 747 for this and it makes my mixes sound more lush. Ive also used a pair of quad ( british valve hi fi
preamps and much cheaper than the avalon) to get nice or over driven sound.I have a budget monitoring setup that workes well.I use a sansui AU555 hi fi amp.They are good and at the back you can bypass the pre-amp and plug directly into the power amp stage.(purer signal).I use B@W
601 hi fi speakers.They handle the punchy sounds well @ are accurate but lack a bit in the mids.I check the mids with Mordant Short MS 10s .On an old mac i run a spectrum analyser and compare Bernie Grundman or other professionaly mastered CDs to the job i'm doing.I enjoy mastering but have to work within a budget as we do so i hope these tips help
Posted by: Synthetic Thu 29 Aug 2002, 21:01
here's a link that I just came across for a pdf. written by some guy named Bob Katz and is supposed to be good beginning foundation for mastering if anyone is interested.
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.tcelectronic.com/static.asp?page=bob_katz
Posted by: formatj Thu 29 Aug 2002, 23:41
Thanks for the link!
Did you find it from 4 posts above.
Matt
Posted by: formatj Thu 29 Aug 2002, 23:46
For more tips and tricks try
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.sospubs.co.uk/
and search "Mastering"
Matt
Posted by: bigheaven Fri 30 Aug 2002, 02:03
Here is Bob Katz's web site. www.digido.com
He used to work at Chesky Records,they do high resoludion,(ie 24 bit 96k digital recordings) for the audiophile marketThey also have a good reference CD .Bob has his own company called Digital Domain.
Posted by: Synthetic Fri 30 Aug 2002, 14:13
LOL... nope... actually found that link on www.prosoundweb.com while browsing around and didn't even realize that it was posted before... Duhh (smacking myself in forehead as I type). Guess it helps to read sometimes
Posted by: ioGirl Sat 31 Aug 2002, 11:00
So much incredible info. Checked it all out.
RE: The Mastering Genius...
I do agree as with any art, that it's ultimately not the instrument but how the artist uses it.
( It's not as much the paint as it is how the painter sees....in Mastering, what the artist hears)
This in mind, can anyone point to the Michaelangelo of Mixing? Are there those that are admired by the Mix Masters as Mastering Genius?
ioGirl
Posted by: filarion Sat 31 Aug 2002, 11:50
Bob Katz certainly is very well respected and about the only thing close to a "mastering guru" that I have heard of. He wrote a brochure touching some advanced mastering topics in a PDF that is available on TC´s website (it came bundled with the TC Finalizer). His website is http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.digido.com/ I think. Not pretty, but some good content if I remember correctly. He also reviews gear for several mags - his writing style is very entertaining and doesn´t lecture at all despite being very informative.
Posted by: damann Sun 1 Sep 2002, 01:20
bob ludwig, herb powers, tom coyne, bernie grundman...
i feel blessed just mentioning these guys names. 
Posted by: ioGirl Mon 2 Sep 2002, 12:21
What is that peculiar backround image on Bob Ludwig's site?
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gwclients_list.asp
Oh...that's just his list of clients.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the names. Will check out all these guys. Starting with Bob. Pretty insightful article:
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.digitalprosound.com/2002/06_jun/features/bob_ludwig.htm
It's unfortunate that industry has so much impact on art...but I guess that's life in a commercial world.
My next question would be; "Are there guys out there with artistic integrity...that could care less what the industry wants?"...but I'd rather go and remix all my stuff...you know, make it real loud.
ioCandy
Posted by: damann Mon 2 Sep 2002, 14:42
these guys all have artistic integrity. but as true pros, always find a way to keep the customer satisfied as well.
i read a great interview with bernie grundman. he was critical of the modern trend towards LOUD masters. but had been considerate enough to build a custom limiter so discreet that it could function as a volume knob!
check out herb"the pump"powers, this guy has mastered almost every black american artist's records for many years.
this guy does stuff with compressors that should carry a health warning...
Posted by: ioGirl Mon 2 Sep 2002, 15:45
I was truly just being silly with that "integrity remark". Especially regarding Bob Ludwig. A true artist grows to greater heights within confines such as these.
With Mixing/Mastering especially for Pop culture/Mass America (and beyond), I would imagine that these confines are a given.
When we're in that ivory tower we can turn the music down. But ivory is so expensive....
So let's crank stuff up and let the SMASHING begin.
Posted by: ioGirl Tue 3 Sep 2002, 04:36
Talk about unsung heroes. These guys are all so impressive.
Not feelin' so good about T-Racks anymore.
Posted by: damann Tue 3 Sep 2002, 19:58
t-racks is kinda like alcohol.
makes you feel great about yourself...
until you wakeup the next day!
having said that, i'd like to see what bob, herb, tom, and bernie can do with it. 
Posted by: ioGirl Fri 6 Sep 2002, 20:51
It's the next day. Just wakin' up. No dinosaur hangover today.
Giving T-Racks a break. Stayin' on the wagon this time. After Barney, I said I'd never trust another Purple dinosaur anyway. I don't know what happened.
Can anyone give pointers on mastering for different genres. What are some things to take note of for each. ie Jazz will have a much more dynamic range than hip-hop or pop. How are each of the genres best approached? (Jazz, Hip-Hop, R&B, Rock, Pop, electronic etc...)
Also are there guys that have a feel for and master better in one particular genre?
Posted by: ioGirl Sat 7 Sep 2002, 02:12
oh yeah....
Is mastering electronic music different that the other genres. Easier perhaps? more/less challenging?
Posted by: damann Sat 7 Sep 2002, 13:53
as i said, for hip-hop/ r&b check out herb powers. definitely numero uno.
bob ludwig and bernie grundman for everything else bar electronic stuff.
electronic/programmed music IS easier, on the basis that it's less dynamic than music created with real instruments.
people tend to apply more extreme eq's and compression to modern programmed music (because they can), the bass wars are raging out there!
pop is all about the finaliser (multi-band, frequency concious, compressor/eq), LOADS of middle. 
these kind of mixes tend to sound a bit too fried for me.
most modern mixes tend to have rather large bottoms!
and the golden rule of course is...
there's no such thing as a vocal that's too loud.
sweetening, or emphasis as it's known, is an important area.
in london, we have a home-grown hip-hop/r&b/drum&bass hybrid that's by far the most popular stuff at the moment. try and check some out, the bass is everything. i guarantee you that you will not have heard this much bass anywhere before, and this is the latest flavour of pop music here!!!
Posted by: Teiwaz Sun 1 Dec 2002, 04:31
T-Racks comes across a puny purple ghekko after hearing Waves Masters in action!
Posted by: holli Sun 1 Dec 2002, 13:54
Eie, for real. Westside.
Posted by: thief Wed 16 Apr 2003, 15:46
Sonicworx from Prosoniq is fantastic when it comes to software mastering on the Mac.
You can check it out here.
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://www.prosoniq.com
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)