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Posted by: darcyb62 Thu 3 Feb 2005, 15:19

It has finally come time for me to upgrade my hardware. I have been currently been using an old PIII 500mHz with 512Meg of ram and a slow hard disk. I use Tracktion for my host and with a lot track freezing, it becomes somewhat usabe (but just barely)...

Up until recently I had been considering staying on the Windows side, but with the recent introduction of the Mac Mini I decided to take a more serious look at what Apple could offer, so I've tried to do a bit of comparison. I'm committed to purchasing a notebook and I tried to target $2500 (Cdn) for cost.

This is what I have come up with...

On the Apple side:

Powerbook G4 combo drive
15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
1.5GHz PowerPC G4
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB 5400rpm Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon
9700 (64 MB DDR)
Backlit keyboard
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400 & 800
Analog audio in/out
DVI & S-Video out

Cost is $2499 (cdn)

On the PC side:
Dell Inspiron 9200
Intel® Pentium® M 755 Processor (2GHz/400MHz FSB)
17" ultrawide xga+
1 gig sdr ram
128MB ATI's™ Mobility Radeon™ 9700
24X CD-RW/DVD Combination Drive
60GB 7200rpm Hard Drive

I might be wrong on this, but it seems to me that from a performance perspective, Dell would be the better option. In addition, there seems to be a greater number of low cost / free plugins for thw Windows side verses the Mac side (but I might be totally wron with respect to this as my experiience to date has been solely limited to the PC side).

I am really trying to justify the move to Mac but its been a difficult journey. Hopefully this forum can help provide me with some added insight.

Thanks.

Posted by: Dustan Thu 3 Feb 2005, 16:47

Hi! There...

It's always hard to compare these things... but for my own experiece I can try to point out some things..

1- The issue number one is a HUGE thing...and nobody ever talks about this when comparing the 2 platforms... how come pc users..dont' realize that Macs run better and more stable not because of it's charmy looks but because APPLE makes the machine and the system. This is a head start advantage of ..hey.. "this might give apple a better chance to make a better machine to work with demanding things such as audio!".. whenever Microsoft would make a computer or DELL would make a system... it would make the PC world a better place....isn't this obvious?!

2- 99,999% of Mac users are former PC users...and 99,999% of them don't go back, does that portraits a picture?. 99,999% of Pc users that prefer PC... have never ever tried to work with a MAC.... have neer owned a MAC... and most of them until recent times have never seen a MAC...hahah... just kidding...

the serious issues..are tooo long to discuss.. I am just trying to illustrate this discussion with some curious points... as for plug ins and softs.. I leave for the guys with more..blue balls under their forum status..... heheh

Have a nice work on whatever platform you choose...

cheers!

Posted by: darcyb62 Thu 3 Feb 2005, 17:36

Thanks for the response Dustan... Stability is one area that has really pushed me in thinking that a Powerbook might be the way to go. It took a lot of work to tune my current notebook to get it do anything with audio. I tested out a current higher end notebook (Pentium) and saw that it was going to take the same effort it to get it going. I tried the same on my daughters iBook G3 and it worked without a hitch given some processor and memory constraints.

Having asked the same question on the PC side many say they haven't experienced the problems but then again when you dig deeper many have experienced similar problems and those that say they currently have a stable system have had to spend some time tuning.

Given the common understanding on stability between the two platforms and lets say hypothetically speaking they were the same, how much more/less could I do on the Mac platorm verses the PC platform at the price point I am looking at.

Thanks again...

Posted by: editbrain Fri 4 Feb 2005, 07:44

apple customer care is not really nice to there users, but i have to say that i use apple for the simple fact that when programmers write programs they can optimize it for the apple platform. there is not any guessing on what kinda hardware to write the program for.


this means a lot for stability.

Posted by: mfroman Fri 4 Feb 2005, 22:31

I bought my first PowerBook back in 2000, after after spec'ing out as close to identical systems (firewire, etc), the Apple came out cheaper by the barest margin.

However, that was looking at _hardware_ only. When you consider the included software, the stability, and the enormous advantage in not dealing with viruses and spyware, you'll be way ahead. I cannot stress enough what not dealing with viruses and spyware does for you.

I now have a PowerBook G4 1.5 GHz, with 1G RAM. It makes a great portable music machine. Meanwhile, the old PowerBook soldiers on serving music in the home theater. I have had _excellent_ service from the Apple customer care people on the two occasions that I've needed it.

Once you buy one, you'll never want to go back. You'll love it.

Posted by: peabreu Sat 5 Feb 2005, 00:24

IMO it all ends up with what you feel better with. I have been an Apple user since 1990. My studio machine is still one Apple G4 DP1.25 but I have to tell you a couple of things:

1) stability is a hoax, both platforms have their quirks and presently with OSX I find more problems in Macs than on PCs (read windows is a much more mature OS...count the successive updates of Panther 10.3.X)...and before it works they talk about Tiger (10.4.X) and then about this and that... I am really very sceptical about this all Apple attitude and even costumer support...

2) OSX is IMO a real mess, its nor meat nor fish...meaning it is not the old simple and efficient MACOS (read up to OS9...that I still use daily and prefer it to the OSX by very far), nor is it a windows (XP or 2000) platform...it falls somewhere in the middle and surpassing both in many areas but force you to the mind set of a Windows user with unnecessary complexity to things that should be simple...authorize this and that, and password to delete this and that...what a complete crappy mess...

3) Yes its true you have more of everything on the PC side...also more options on hardware...and more headaches when tuning a system, but don't expect much less problems to fine tune one OSX station

4) I do believe that Apple powerbooks are way to much expensive for what they offer...

This is the opinion of an "old" Apple user (RIP StudioVision Pro and great midi timming) and currently using both platforms... but still I would not be able to tell u that, given the chance, I would exchange my studio Mac setup for a PC one, as for me midi and audio on computers has always been Apple so old habbits dye hard...this is also probably true with OSX...that I trully hate!!!!

Posted by: lepetitmartien Sat 5 Feb 2005, 01:14

Peabreu, are you saying that FreeBSD is not a mature OS? (I can hear the linux hordes from here coming for the kill

Right now, all the instability onto OSX can be traced to faulty instals, USB quirks (from 3rd party hardware), and buggy software. OS X is rock solid. I don't say XP is less solid, it has also its quirks and given the broad hard and soft possibilities, a hell more prone to come.

OS X is elegant in its own way, if you don't feel at home yet that a question of time. The UNIX base means there's a lot under that is not running as it was so to compare is irrelevant. Right now, the old OS is XP, you mind . the authorize thing is mandatory on a UNIX platform, you can do without but you're trashing a lot of the security. It's a bore yes but it has its advantages too. And in a clean set up, it won't be obstrusive.

the few following rules help a lot:

- have RAM!
- separate files from the OS/app drive
- start with a clean OS
- don't upgrade as soon a new version of the S is out, especially with peripherals in the low end market. The drivers can get nuts.
- After installs: repair permissions!
- try to keep your music set up on an admin user.
- try to keep all your plug-ins in the same library folder.
- uninstall demos when dead or unneeded.
- avoid K (they can do a mess in a set up, really)
- learn OS X! (there are a few sites/books out there worth a read)



I was an OS 9 defender (and I have still an OS 9 set up for graphic work in case) but OS X after 15 month is maybe the greatest experience i have had on a computer to date (about 16 years, windows still give me the creeps). Most of the problem people have is usually related on their habits in Classic. OS X is NOT Classic. And Classic is dead, time to move on (save if your set up runs in OS 9, smoothly, and you don't need more power or features).

Posted by: jeffca Sat 5 Feb 2005, 05:50

The biggest reason you buy an Apple laptop is build quality. Most other laptops feel like and look like they're made out of recycled milk cartons.

If you have the chance to get you fingers on a PowerBook, give it a test drive. It's as capable as any laptop when it comes to real world performance.

I've got a 1.25ghz 15" PowerBook and a dual 2ghz G5. Quite frankly, if I could own just one, the laptop would be vapor. For the $2500 you have to spend, very few computers even get in the same league as a G5. It's a beast.

While running a Mac isn't the cheapest way to go, there is a good reason why half of all Avid editing suites and about 90% of professional ProTools systems are Macs. It's not because the tech heads that use them won't learn a new OS. In fact, Avid was fazing out Mac development until they received a backlash from its customers. And Alias sells almost one third of its seats for Maya to Mac users.

Personally, I have never once felt hobbled by the Mac OS when it came to audio. Since I also do 3D, it would be nice to have SoftImage or Houdini on the platform, but you can't have everything.

Best of luck and I hope you enjoy whatever you get. You can do great work on either platform. It ain't the tools, baby...

Jeff

Posted by: Narayan Sun 27 Feb 2005, 17:51

Hi, I have been using PC and a music composer who has been using Cakewalk all my life, that is, almost 15 years. In fact from Cakewalk 2 now till cakepro audio 9 I never needed to use any other software. Especially with the EMU's sound font technology, ably supported by Creative sound cards, I have been very comfortable creating professional music compostions incorporating a lot of ethnic sounds from all over the world. Right now, I am using a Fujitsu 1.8 GH notebook with creative USB sound card and 512 MB Ram (the maximum possible). Earlier (till Windows 98 SE) it was very nice. But with XP, lots of problems have cropped up. For one, the upgrades that keep coming are just frustrating, as your OS size keeps on increasing and thereby eating up your resources and slowing down the computer. Further, one gets very frustrated with the viruses, adware, spyware etc. and when the system crashes, you do not even know what caused it.

Now I am seriously considering buying am IMac G5 with at least one GIG RAM. With the added music software, it is coming to $4000 plus which is really stiff on a person like me, who is a freelancer. Further, I am not sure whether one needs some kind of special audio card to support the music software.

I would be thankful if one of you, who is a serious music composer enlighten me and suggest whether it is worth the switch and the money.
Thanks, Narayanan

Posted by: editbrain Mon 28 Feb 2005, 04:47

Jeffca,
I own a 12" powerbook 867mhz, and a dual G5 2.0 (which i use for running logic)
i would say that if i had a choice i would vapor my Powermac G5. Had nothing but trouble. The little powerbook does everything asked of it.

editbrain.

Posted by: simmac Tue 1 Mar 2005, 17:13

Hi Narayan

I used the PC for 10 years and about 2 years ago I changed for mac and that was one of the best decision in my life.
I didn't have any problem with the mac.I use a powerbook and everything is fine.
About the sound card the question is what you use,more midi, audio,soft synths.........................and your money.Now there are a lot of great stuff on the market,just you have to know what you use(midi,audio.....................) and if you want to do just demo quality or pro quality.
Like this I don't know what to suggest.

Posted by: Narayan Wed 2 Mar 2005, 18:17

Hi Simmac,
Thanks for the encouragement. Still I am not sure whether one needs a specialised sound card to run, say Logic pro/Logic express? Would the on board sound card quality be good enough? Obviously, I need to produce professional quality sounds from soft synths only, as I work from home and lugging heavy synths and other gear to different sound studios is becoming a big hassel. My other concern is that would I be able to use sounds created by me (which I am presently using as sound fonts with Cakepro audio 9 sequencing software)? What sound card (if needed) should one buy for an ideal/optimum stereo sound output? I would be grateful if some one can give a little more specific suggestions. Thanks anyway,

Narayan

Posted by: citypigeon Wed 2 Mar 2005, 18:51

hi,

Its capturing the incoming analog audio thats most important because once its in, its not likely to go back out until you've put it onto a CD - which means the analog outs will only be used for connecting speakers/headphones rather than recording mixdowns. So if you just use software you can get by with just the mac audio without it making any difference in sound quality

I would say the audio interface on the mac is comparable to a soundcard of about £50 to £100 in quality, but obviously the connectors are limited to minijacks. I'm waiting to upgrade my MOTU PCI324 card to the 424 so i can get my 2408 back up and running. Meanwhile i'm getting by with the standard mac I/O fine

Posted by: midnitremedy Thu 3 Mar 2005, 05:19

Hi my name is Jeremy (email midniteremedy@gmail.com) and I really need some advice-
I bought a powerbook g4 with 1 gig ram, and 100 gig hard drive, and 128 mb video ram, and a motu 896hd (1000 bucks supposed to have 8 preamps 192 khz audio and im not really sure if its that worth it or if the 896 is better for the money or if i should just scale it down a notch and get the mbox) I tried using it with garageband and i dont know if it was garageband's fault or the rig but the volume was always so low and even after boosting it it was low. I record so far just oen track at a time, but i've had situations in the past where i would want to record 3 or more, like with tarbukas or another guitar or voice and this box should be great for that even a whole drum set (though currently i only have 3 mics a beta 58, sm57 and octava mk-319) and i got a groove tubes DI BOX- is that good? I bought this stuff but have another 2 weeks to return it without a restocking fee- and I really am not sure if i bought correctly i could not afford to buy a program right now even - i was thinking of logic not sure some people say pro tools is easier, etc, i also bought an 02 midi controller and it is too small i think and i have an old casio keyboard which might be enough for me is the truth i just got to get the adapter for midi to usb-....
i need a ton of advice please don't hesitate to email me at inspiredmusic@hotmail.com or midniteremedy@gmail.com (my temporary website is midniteremedy.com)
anyway thanks a lot for your speedy advice- and also do i need more than a gig ram- what if i wanted to record a full 8 tracks simultaneously?
thanks,
jeremy

Posted by: simmac Fri 4 Mar 2005, 01:05

Hi Narayan

So,if you don't work with audio recording,you don't need real pro soundcard.For the soft synts,you need lot of RAM,1GB or more is better but I suggest to have a soundcard also because my experience is the sound card is helping for the computer.
Wich one?
Presonus firebox,edirol..........,your choice.It's really hard to tell wich one.I think the firebox is a breat product.

Good luck

Posted by: Narayan Fri 4 Mar 2005, 09:08

Hi Simmac,

Thanks for clearing my doubts. Yes, I also do audio recordings. But being a green horn with the entire Mac business, I just want to have a hands on experience with the computer and software first, as the entire lay out, lingo, and way the software works looks so different from what I have been doing all along; but again, once you have the experience in creating music, no matter what software you use, I suppose one gets used to all new things fast, as the basics are same everywhere! I may go in for a fairly expensive USB sound card for audio recordings (better to put a little cash extra and go for the better ones the first time itself - in the longer run, it makes more sense) a little later.

I will be in touch, once I get going. Thanks,

Narayan

Posted by: simmac Sat 5 Mar 2005, 11:32

Hi Narayan

You are right.You know everything is personal.I like this program,I like this or that it really depends on a lot of things.Unfortunatly we need time to find the best setup for us and of course we spend a lot of money,but that's how it is.
I'm in that point,I need real pro hardware but it costs a lot and until that time when your music job doesn't give back this is just a hobby.

Good luck in the future

Posted by: GitGeezer Mon 7 Mar 2005, 08:16

20-year Win-to-OSX switcher comments:

I switched to a G4 667 Titanium Powerbook about two years ago after years working in the Windows gloom. I actually look forward to using my computer for the first time in many years.

Build quality: the PAINT (I thought it was titanium) is peeling off the hinges on my Powerbook. The newer aluminum pbooks had lines in the displays, and my TiBook has developed a vertical bar down the screen. I'm no longer impressed with build quality.

Stability: I've used PC OS's since before Microsoft had one. OS X is THE reason to go Mac. Follow the minimal advice above (repair permissions) and you should be happy. EVERY version of Windows has acted up on me, even on factory-fresh systems.

I have noticed, however, a disturbing trend to resist OS X upgrades. I always waited on Windows upgrades, often not upgrading for a year. Until Panther (OS X 3) I happily installed every free OS upgrade. No longer. Recent updates have had their problems. It's starting to feel a little like Windows feature-bloat and update-death lately.

Powerbook vs. G5: in 2 years my one-notch-under the state of the art Powerbook (667Mhz,1 Gig memory) is struggling to run crucial apps (Sibelius 3, Live 4.1, Absynth 3) at all and won't even install Garritan Personal Orchestra. Apparently Logic 7 Pro (at $1000) still runs well on G4 systems. I wouldn't risk it. I'll be going to a dual G5 desktop system withing six months. No point waiting for G5 Powerbooks, the software needs dual processor systems. I'm staying with OS X, regardless.

Good luck,
GitGeezer

Posted by: cludinsk Mon 7 Mar 2005, 21:26

hmm... i have an pb 800 and have little problem running Live or Absynth, thought i dont doubt that i could run more plugins on a more current faster machine. but you have to remember its now a 3 year old laptop, which are never top of the line even when you buy them compared to desktops. i personally would never give up the portability for a desktop again, i love it. but it depends on your needs...

as for build, if you buy a laptop, make sure you get an extended warranty. my TiBook has been in 3 times for major repairs, and they replaced that damn peeling paint etc at the same time... the newer powerbooks, with the ports off to the side etc, seem to be better built.

Posted by: GitGeezer Tue 8 Mar 2005, 05:48

Quite correct. When I bought the TiBook I decided to save a little by going down from 800 to 667. Probably a bad habit from the PC world where memory gets the budget instead of processor speed. I would also reccomend the AppleCare extended warranty. Again, I wanted to save $300. The aluminum cases are a much better idea. I have a client that actually draws on his. Add some dents & dings and it begins to take on an indestructible personality.

Problems with Live 4.1 (Live 2 seemed to be a little more robust) include glitching with just a few loops and one or two recorded audio tracks. Reverb as an insert effect stops it cold. The effect bus approach works, however. Absynth 3 may be ok but it sounds like it might be gently glitching also. CPU maxes out on many of the factory presets.

I'm now seeing minimum requirements for almost all Mac software and hardware at 800Mhz G4, G5 or dual G5 preferred. So, to keep the hardware current with software will probably cost $1000 to $1500 per year at $3000 to $4000 for a new computer every three years. Time to add a new budget entry...