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Posted by: Yukulele Tue 19 Nov 2002, 18:10

DigitMus said:

Holli answered:



Teiwaz answered:



And now for the rest...
;-)

Bye.

Posted by: rickenbacker Tue 19 Nov 2002, 19:03

Holli - price of the Apogee last time I looked was around £1300. And the little leatherette carry pouch costs extra!

Posted by: Teiwaz Tue 19 Nov 2002, 21:03

Apogee do have high prices. But you do get what you pay for...superior sound quality...that's a major plus.

Apart from Prism (who make even nicer converters - horrendously expensive though) Apogee definitely are the best company out there, and that is more or less all they do - make AD/DA convertors, so they put all their time and resources into it. Dedicated hardware.

They don't make software (not that I'm aware of - except for the new ASIO drivers that support their firewire Ambus cards...I'm drooling now!!)



I have actually acquired new clientele since I invested into Apogee convertors. One friend of mine wanted to mix a couple of tracks at my studio and ended up mixing his entire album with me on my system so that he could get that 'unmistakable' Apogee sound...the AD-8000 actually paid for itself within the first 3 weeks of buying it!!!



The mini-me is just wonderful...and worth every penny! It's a bit like (with an i-Book or Titanium laptop) walking about with an Ampex 1/2 inch 30 ips reel to reel with Dolby SR under your arm!!



That is revolutionary in my eyes...



Anyway DigitMus...I'm envious 'cause I haven't got a mini-me yet! you're one lucky guy!

Posted by: holli Wed 20 Nov 2002, 02:04

Thanks rickenbacker, that is a fairly hot tag but worth it I'm sure!

Could someone explain how this would integrate with a DAW setup? For example, I understand that the preamps, or outboard preamps running in at line level would give the apogee edge A/D wise.. but, how about monitoring the mix inside logic? Eg. If I was to put one in my studio tomorrow, I would presumably need to run the spdif or AES outs into something like my 2408 to go analogue D/A to my monitors

Sorry if this sounds dumb, this is new to me!

Is there any advantage/disadvantage to an internal bounce inside logic/whatever sequencer compared to the digital outputs presented at the apogee?

Presumably one would need similar or superior D/A for monitoring, external bussing etc to appreciate the quality of the apogee gear and work with it to mix? Otherwise I'd just be hearing the D/A of the 2408.

Holli xxx

PS I think I may be asking if the mini-me is a top little portable interface for tracking only or if it has a place in the studio as well, like a junior AD-8000

Posted by: DigitMus Sat 23 Nov 2002, 09:57

holli -
The MiniMe has USB I/O and ASIO drivers for getting signal into your DAW. It also has a headphone jack for monitoring, either the input, or computer playback, or a mix of the 2. FWIW I paid about $1250 for mine. With just the MiniMe, my iBook and a pair of Earthworks QTC-1s or SR-77s I can carry everything I need for a world-class binaural recording in one small briefcase. Add the Sony Spressa and I can burn CDs on location. Gotta love it...

Scott

Posted by: holli Sat 23 Nov 2002, 16:34

thanks dude, I'm jealous!

Apogee kick ass, I'd love to get some info on the UAD ADDA and see if there's a new competetor in the Apogee/Prism field.

Is your poor 828 still a doorstop? How does the headphone output compare to the balanced outs on the 828 for monitoring, or do you have something else lovely tucked away in your studio!

Posted by: urbanmatador Sun 24 Nov 2002, 11:04

828 is a doorstop now!?!? high praise... what about latency? as i understand it, the USB bus has terrible latency troubles...

also, how do you reconcile the fact that you've only got two channels to work with? do you find that a limitation? if i need multichannel audio for my tibook, what product do people recommend?

Posted by: DigitMus Fri 29 Nov 2002, 03:26

Latency is pretty bad on it (like anything USB) so you'll need some kind of outboard monitoring situation (like a Mackie 1202) if you're gonna be overdubbing. I mainly got it for live to 2 track location recording, which it excels at. If I told you what I have in my studio, you'd faint.
Lemme put it this way, my portable multi-track location rig consists of a Mackie MDR24/96 w/AES cards, Crane Song Spider, HEDD192 and Flamingo, Earthworks 1024, Lucid 9624DA (for monitoring), Royer SF-12, 2 Neumann M149s, 2 Earthworks QTC-1s, 2 Earhtworks SR77s, and about 40 more mics if needed. The point of that blatant bragging is just to make the point that, if I only need 2 channels, all that stuff stays home, and the iBook, MiniMe and appropriate pair of mics are all I need to get the same sound quality. The dang thing rocks!

Scott

Posted by: holli Fri 29 Nov 2002, 03:59

Thats cool So, your minime gives you just enough information from the headphone out to get the placement right on location, and you can trust the quality of the apogee and the mics (and of course your familiarity with the kit) to be there when you get back to edit/mix -I think I understand now
I was thinking from a studio perspective, as a cheap way of getting that apogee sound. Is there a stereo in/out adda made by apogee? i.e to enable monitoring/bouncing from one of their convertors.

Posted by: urbanmatador Fri 29 Nov 2002, 07:02

so what you're saying is, you've got a good kit.



i'm quite impressed. therefore, you are the perfect guy to answer my question. i do live theatre sound, and i'm looking for a hardware solution which will let me record multiple tracks while preparing for a show, then play back at least four indipendant channels through a piece of software that i'm developing (currently written in hypercard, going to cocoa in the next few months).

the recordings are mostly effects (hitting things, breaking things, etc.) or music for underscoring. quality is important (isn't it always?), but nobody is going to be listening carefully to my stuff in headphones.

all my research so far points to the 828 as the best candidate. firewire is easy, the hardware is rugged, the quality is above average (not WAY above, but above), and the price is right.

am i off base? should i be looking at other options? i've got WAY less money than DigitMus...

thanks in advance. that is cool, though, your setup.

Posted by: Presto Fri 29 Nov 2002, 10:18

Digitmus, you say "Latency is pretty bad on it (like anything USB)..."

The Mbox can be considered to have ZERO latency and its USB, but then again it only has 2 I/O. UrbanMat, are you sure you need more?

If you're using mikes for actors as well as noises, you should look at the DPA miniatures (sweat tolerance and good for percussion too).

Posted by: Teiwaz Fri 29 Nov 2002, 22:22

Sure Presto, but latency for Digitmus (as he himself pointed out) is not an issue when he records in the field with his laptop. He has some of the most impressive kit I have seen on this forum, so if the Mbox was better (!!) I'm sure he would be using it.



Sound quality is of the essence here. The Mini-me is a pro sounding piece of kit.

Digi's Mbox is not such a professional sounding unit (it's decidedly semi-pro), near zero latency or not, and it simply can't be pitted against anything Apogee put out there.

It also depends if one relies on a USB convertor for EVERYTHING one records/mixes, or just for capturing audio in the field and then importing it into a pro rig back at the studio.

If you rely on the Mbox for everything including overdubbing, then it may be great as a handy one stop solution, but in the situation of having to use a USB interface, I know what I would rather have...a clearer, professional sounding recording (Mini-me), and split the input into a small mixer for monitoring during recording...after all, you're stuck with a recording once it has been made, and it reflects on one's professionalism as to how good it sounds. It all depends on what/who the recording is for at the end of the day.

Horses for courses...

Posted by: Presto Sat 30 Nov 2002, 14:00

Teiwaz, you say "Digi's Mbox is not such a professional sounding unit (it's decidedly semi-pro), near zero latency or not, and it simply can't be pitted against anything Apogee put out there."

On what do you base this comment? I don't believe you are unbiased. Could you explain the meaning of "decidely semi-pro" when you talk about the Mbox as compared to the mini-me (doesn't apogee say its not really 96K - only 48K for the moment?).

I know of musicians with loads of "impessive gear" including the Mbox, so at least they don't think as you do.

However I cannot give any comment on comparative quality as I have no experience of, and know nobody local with the mini-me.

I do hope you have first hand experience of the two, and are not just giving us salesman talk.

Still, you also say "it all depends on what/who the recording is for at the end of the day". I agree, but I would add that once you get to the Mbox level, the quality and money you spend depends particularly on the mics, the environment, and of course the person making the sound, and the sound/music itself. There's no point paying more for quality in a piece of equipment if the rest of the chain doesn't reach that quality.


Anyway, UrbanM, I'm recording lots of noises too (using an Mbox) and the Mbox/Focusrite solution is perfect for me. Even if people did take a close look at your 'bruitage', I'm sure they would find no fault due to an Mbox which is great value for money.

OT (I'm not a moderator here ): Holli. My Selmer alto sax is N° 18767 (British Agent). Would this give an idea of its exact age, or anything else? Not sure if there's enough to say about saxes to warrant a Topic

Posted by: soif Sat 30 Nov 2002, 16:04

Mbox is a semi-pro equipment because its converters can't compete with Apogee ones.
Apogee has made its name from its converter quality: Professionnals often replace expensives Digidesign converter (or sony ones, or mackie ones, etc...) with Apogee ones which are REALLY better (and really more expensive...).
I didnt heard the mini-me but i expect it to be at least as good as their previous AD1000 which is excellent...

FYI, M-Box has a BIG (monitoring) latency
The only clever thing about latency is the knob to mix the analog input to the monitor output.

BTW presto, your new avatar is funny

Posted by: Bart S. Sat 30 Nov 2002, 17:09

Don't you get USB extension conflicts?... Do you have other USB devices already connected (modem, trackball...)?

Posted by: urbanmatador Sat 30 Nov 2002, 18:55

thanks for the advice, everyone. i've been lurking for a while, and it's nice to feel supported by the community.

so one more question to pose: what's is the best device for multichannel output? it sounds like most of you folks are ultimately putting your work onto a cd or mp3 or some other stereo playback format... my work is played back "live" dring a show, and i want at least four independant channels.

thoughts?

Posted by: holli Sat 30 Nov 2002, 19:47

haha, and damn the topic!! Presto, I believe your sax is a 1934 Radio Improved model, it came after the cigar cutter design (weird crook) -and an early one at that. Quite an old girl! If ever you need very specialist work done on this kind of instrument, I have a great contact here in the uk, sax players travel from across the country and Europe for his fine skills .

And back.. . If it's worth anything at all, Teiwaz is not a salesman! I've known him for quite a while and this is definately not the case! However, if I could appeal to you Presto as a fellow man of sax (well, you don't have to trust me, but hey!), he's one of the most technologically aware and sophisticated producers I have ever met. Also very rare, as I've found to my peril in the last few months working in other studios, to find someone who is in equal measure a fine musician in the traditional sense and is thus flexible and sensitive enough to respond to the material or artist. Thoroughly bloody good bloke.

Recently, a client played the outputs of his internal soundcard (g4) through my desk, we were syncronising a project I'd set up roughly. I had programmed a rough 'vibe' mix to enable him to continue writing, logic env etc. Mainly getting the bottom nice and tight and fat. He was shocked at the difference of the same track being played through my 2408. By comparison, the internal soundcard sounded bloody aweful. Bass flimsy, flopping, no integration of parts, even to the point of giving the impression of timing errors in the programming. Not to mention the highs. Yuk.

Anyway, my point is if we equate this huge difference (internal vs 2408) to an 100% improvement, my recent listening to Apogee convertors seems at least to offer relatively another 50% improvement (2408 vs apogee). Maybe it's more, but thats on the limits of what I could perceive as being better. I would tend to trust Teiwazs ear for quality over mine!

So, anyway. Hi Urbanmatador.

If you are going to do multichannel work in a theatre, honestly, I would avoid the 828, or 001, or similar. Normally I love Motu, as has been said here before -good build quality, reliable, easy to use, of course v. good conversion, BUT... do listen to the outputs on the 828.
They are unbalanced, making them subject to cable bourne noise, v. bad for long cable runs in theatres, usually having birds nests of cables and older mains wiring, not to mention the lighting rigs (bzzzzzzzzz). Also, they are quite noisy compared to the main outs (which are balanced). With lots of amplification in the auditorium, this will be intolerable. The noise floor of course rising the more outputs you use simultaneously.

The only audio card I can advise with any reliability which has multiple balanced outs, all of the same quality, and will also reject the interferance associated with theatre work internally (fat metal case) is the above mentioned 2408. I don't know of anything that comes close without spending alot more dosh. Perhaps someone else here has experience of something else that will do what you want. Best of luck, Holli xxx

Posted by: Presto Sat 30 Nov 2002, 23:40

Well, Urb. You have got lots of answers at different levels. Great isn't it.

Yes, soif is right about the latency trick in the Mbox, but that's all I need, it suits my budget, and I believe the quality suits the rest of my stuff. You need 4 outs though. Hey if you have a restricted budget maybe you can get more than 2 outs on the Mbox. I'm not in a position to look now but will have a look tomorrow. Noooo! Silly idea! You want the sounds to come out in 4 different places on the stage.

OK Soif, you are probably right about Teiwaz's opinion and Holli has a high opinion of him too, so I suppose I must back down. Dammit! Only partially though - poor Teiwaz is unfortunate and only has a RED rose!

OT Thanks for the sax info Holli. I'll send you an email

Posted by: Teiwaz Sun 1 Dec 2002, 00:54

Hey, Presto!!

Your turn to get the drinks in...and maybe I'll give you a blade of grass, but I'm saving the red rose for my wife.