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Posted by: Presto Wed 30 Oct 2002, 12:40

Please give your opinion on an imminent complete re-categorisation for MacMusic forums.

Personally, I'm quite happy with a simple hardware forum separate from software issues, and I don't care if the hardware is Mac specific or not. I find it very difficult to observe the present rules where computer-specific hardware issues should be posted in OS9 or OSX (which one is not always clear). It's true there are many more posts on the French side, so I agree that more sub categories could help seeing a bit clearer.

I'm happy Damann should agree with me on the hardware issue (see Mini-me topic). I was starting to wonder if my brain was just too simple. This may be a problem of culture based logic.

I correct scientific articles for French researchers wishing to be published in English, and have my work cut out to get their logic simplified and clear for international readers. As my clients do get published when they use me, I presume my simplicity attitude is appropriate.

We are working on a new categorisation for forums, and I do hope the anglo-saxon approach will be heard. Do say what you'd like.

"Hear my cry" (Purcell)

Posted by: damann Thu 31 Oct 2002, 03:21

whilst appreciating the fact that small print does exist on this subject, i feel that the general headings are misleading for the majority, i.e newbies.
for the average guy looking for answers to problems, hardware is hardware, smallprint is small etc.
when i have the time to try and help these guys, i find it a nightmare wading through the "grey area". the logical approach is that "macmusic" pertains to the making of music on a mac. therefore, os9 is software related, osx is osx related, and hardware is not software!
i'll post my feelings about the proposed re-organisation of forum categories in the relevant thread. this seems to require some serious thought/debate, as the proposals for it's re-organisation that i've read so far, fail to convince me that they're actually better.
peace & respect 2 all, later...

Posted by: lepetitmartien Thu 31 Oct 2002, 14:19

It has, really, some sense my intervention. I have a job to do. If the organisation is not right, we talk about, then change it. not the other way around.

and I'm seriously begining of wasting my sense of humour on these issues. bad use of forum doesn't change their use. In depth thinking of use due to bad use of it do.

meanwhile, we follow the rules

Posted by: Soif Thu 31 Oct 2002, 14:28

We have been working hard with lpm and other team members to add new categories, in a way we think: efficient, usefull, and not too confusing...
The new cats will come soon...

hold your breath

Posted by: lepetitmartien Fri 1 Nov 2002, 14:36

The problem with newbies we are really aware of it, remember that all you experience (are you experienced in the EN section we have 3 times more in the FR forums. about 6 months ago we began to rethought categories as it was becoming unmanageble in the near future as Macmu grows really fast and is not a commercial site, so all the guys doing it spare time would have the less work to do the better (any volunteers?)

We'd love to have a pure EN native crew to suffer Presto , so that french moderators could go back to FR forums. Better for everyone (it's not segregation, but moderate in a different langage as his mother tongue is time consuming and can sometime drive to misunderstandings)

Now on the categories… we know of experience (no need to tell us that, we follow the forums more closely than any normal visitor) that the actual ones are not perfect. We decided to expand (and I mean expand) the number of forums. There are 2 goals that we want to reach:

- easier categorisation: more forums means more explicit titles, less misposting/misthreading

- easier newbie navigation: if the titles aren't confusing, they can find the right forum more easily

- easier moderation job: smaller forums, less work, less misthreading/misposting

The midi/audio interfaces is a good example: they are now in the computer only threads, it has a sense as 99% of troubles on are software/computer related, they ARE computer peripherals. But it sure can be confusing. We know that. So there will be instead of a music hardware forum placement which is not relevant for us (we'd like better have people talk about their UREI or Neuman there there will be a dedicated midi/audio interfaces forum.

Clearer, isn't it?

We are this WE beginning the transition on the FR side into the new forums, it's a lot of work. Maybe all the categorie won't be of use right now on the EN side. But the list will be published quickly, so that you can comment on. Eventually change a few things.

We'd really like people on the En side begin to take on the task. It's be for the better

About the newbies, well… a real problem. There will be a dedicated forum for all new registered to post into, to get rid of the imic/mbox/what computer/what the hell questions, so that we can get concentrated on more in depth threads in the new forums.

Now sorry if I'm a bit arsh on the thread placement but if an organisation of forums is not right, we talk before, then change, not post everywhere like mad, it won't change the categorisations by itself.

Posted by: Presto Fri 1 Nov 2002, 19:17

OK

Let's continue with (non-francophone!!!) USERS' suggestions.

Market research before designing new product

Posted by: BusError Fri 1 Nov 2002, 20:38

Well, for me, it had always been rather clear from the name of the forums:
+ OS 9: sorta obsolete, I don't particularily want to read it.
+ OS X: ok I read that, thats what I use.
+ Hardware: cool, I've got that piece of external gear, I talk about it there

So, whats the f*ck the hardware forum is for if it's not for talking about hardware *especialy hardware that has no difference in functionality on os9 and osx*

It seems perfectly logic a setup, if I want to read storied about OMS, I go read OS9. If I want to read a story about Mini-Me or Erirol Blob-160 I go read Hardware.

So, when I posted the "Mini-Me" topic, it was, in my own view, perfectly in place where it was. And when it was moved to OS9, I was really wondering. In fact, I'm still wondering.

I think the moderators should also think past the tip of their nose and try to remember how lusers reacts : no intervention is better than a bad intervention.

So in that particular subject:
+ I (questionably, maybe) posted a topic, that was in any case not COMPLETELY off tipic in the hardware forum.

Several things could have happened then:

+ Moderator #1 messages me privately saying, "doh, you suck, you didn't read the doc!" and I promise I will never do it again. The End.

+ Moderator #1 reply in the thread "Tss Tss I move this topic to TI99-4A cause I feel like it" in wich case, everyone says "ok, he's the boss, he acts like one for sure". The End.

Instead, what happened is:
+ The thread was moved just like that, on wich I told myself "Another moderating accident, BusyMod clicks the 'move' buttons too fast"
+ Thus, thinking it is an error, I reply; since apparently i hadn't understood the non-os9 related subjects appearing there were MEANT to be there
+ Some other moderator, who obviously was thinking like me and not like the ModBoss, says "doh, wierd" and moves the topic back.
+ The ModBoss -who was hidding all that time behind a banner watching the scene- jumps, shows his fangs, and reapply the rule nobody knows about, because it's discussed in the Moderator Forums anyway.

So, if you look closely and COUNT the number of messages generated by this ONE action, it is FAR MORE than a slight off topic subject would have ever generated by itself. So instead of reducing the chaos, in fact, it blew it completely out of proportions.

I've been a moderator for years. I was a moderator on QBBS (in france) in 1988 already, and I'm also a Game Master on a rather well known MMORPG. The "no intervention is better than bad intervention" is a golden rule.

Posted by: lepetitmartien Sat 2 Nov 2002, 00:13

First OS9 is not, because Stevy said it obsolette, a lot of system (most of) are still running on and continue on about a year from now. And there will be still a lot of computer which won't make the path. Knowledge base, we keep.

I did, no mail because I don't have the time for. I know it's not exactly right, but 6 months ago I had the time, no more now.

OS9 forum is for all the computer stuff, including the peripherals. If the questions had been upon a mismatching of levels on the xlr I would have let it in hardware. a general topic on the peripheral goes OS9.

Why OS9, because most of the music makers are still on 9.
So general peripheral questions go there.

OSX is for X only topics

WE KNOW this is stupid as it is, but we are trying to change it, but NOT in a hurry, and not without taking experience from the whole site. See my precedent post on this.

I'm not saying in anyway that you did badly, i'm only thinking the way we are organized now. It is my duty, remember. It's the same on the french forums, that 's WHY we are changing that, but by creating a dedicated forum for these peripherals (and I'm the boss

As I had moved the thread, He should have asked me before, and I would have said no. He's pretty new as a moderator, so I won't whip him in public (in private neither

I've never been hiding, I was there all the time. he he

Sorry, it's not a reason to attack Irak
You really take it way too seriously, nobody was killed.

the quesiton on my side is to have the forum used as they are meant to be used. topic in the forums. If you have not marked it, macmusic is in full growth crisis. We are adapting to it. And the layback attitude can't go much further.

1- we need moderators
2- we need new forums to clarify the place
3- we need to be strict, as when we have to move (remember while i'm answering you, I'm not on the french side moving topics)

When I took the charge this spring, Soif was doing most of the moderation duty, and simply couldn't do much more. Now he can stay on the site management and coding and sleep at least time to time

(autority argument…)
Chaos has never been a solution (even if the moving post were not exactly the best thing against it We work for the site to be a professional helpfull database. If things are not where they should, it can be because they are not posted where they should, or the place where they should be is weird.

It's not just a question of being a smart ass or what.

To come back on the not completely off topic issue… it is the difficult points, and moderators, and if needed me and Soif on last resort DECIDE. It's dictatorship, but it must be done.

On the other side, as Presto has a point on that, we really need all english native moderators like Presto, as he says: to manage our cultural differences . For my part, I'd be glad to stop moderate (except as the big assh… in chief in the EN forums. It'd be for the better.

now if we could concentrate on the new forums, if presto has finished the list corrected for user input
(better for everyone to see the fruit of our sick minds and brains

Posted by: lepetitmartien Sat 2 Nov 2002, 00:20

…mhhmm forgot…

the subject of the hardware forum right now ?

- mics
- mixers
- racks racks racks
- cables
- instruments
- the guys behind them
- beautifull singers in glamour dresses
- the guys behind them oops…

you know, the non virtual things

Posted by: Presto Sat 2 Nov 2002, 14:40

Thanks Damann and BusError

I don't believe we have to stick to translations of the new French categories.

We just need relatively unambiguous wording on labels.

Any more suggestions? What categories would you like to see?

Posted by: Presto Sat 2 Nov 2002, 19:59

Boll**ks!

Its coming fast. If you don't hurry up, you'll just have to critisize an almost-ready extensive new proposal.

Still, wording can always be changed

Come on, lads an' lasses

Posted by: BusError Sun 3 Nov 2002, 10:31

I think the new names for the french forums are problematic; most people use their gear directly or indirectly wiht a computer, so where does one talk about what?

Imagine I have a MIDI+USB synth and a computer plugged into the same mixer.

Using the current sheme, I would be able to talk about the mixer in "os 9 / X" but not the synth, where I would have to go in "Hardware" ?

Why not have simple categories like
+ Software OS9 (thats cubase, vst etc)
+ Software OSX (CoreIdiot, login etc)
+ Hardware (EVERYTHING that has any piece of physical equipment, including their driver and their interraction with the OS)

So, in OS9 we'd have "Can't copy paste with Logic" and in hardware we'd have "Can't get my SpaceSynth III module work with OMS in Cubase". Then if that works maybe re-subcategorize Harware if the number of posts become to large

Posted by: Presto Mon 4 Nov 2002, 16:47

Welcome BusError. Thanks.

We can propose a new anglo starting point, and as you say with few forum titles, then add as the need or the inspiration appears.

For the moment, if I had a question on my Mbox, I would like to put it in hardware (not the right place). If I have a problem with PTLE I should like to put it in software but now that PT will soon be on both OS9 and OSX, I won't know where to put it.

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Tue 5 Nov 2002, 13:08

Well, I'm having a bit of trouble with what all the hubbub is about, bub.
Perhaps someone should post the recomended forum subcatagories, then hash it out from there. I have had no problems with the way things are, but there must be a problem, or else we would not be discussing it now. Generally when I've seen a forum generate more subcatagories, it was to prompt more postings. So perhaps a recording forum, a instrument forum, the 2 current OS forums, a newbie forum.... Of course then they could even be split up even more... recording hardware...theory...tecnical forum, guitar...midi...synth...acustic...vocal...music theory forum, OS 9..recording...oms...sequencing, same with X. List the forum changes and see what people think.

Posted by: Soif Tue 5 Nov 2002, 14:35

i agree with u kaboom, creating new forums also invite people to post more (that's one of the points)
Another point is to split existing general categories into more specific categories: the choice is not motivated by pure logic, because, as stated buserror, they would always be cases where gears interacts... but if we stay with this 'logic' point of view, we can't split the current 'messy' categories.

We (the moderator team and I) think about it a long time before reorganizing the french part of the forums, to get a balance between logic/new motivating forums and categories split (decided by number of post about specific subjects, not logic), and it seems to work, at least not that bad.

Here is the list (better descriptions would help a lot):

* beginners: all newbie questions, whatever they are (a place were moderator will move newbie recurrent questions)

* plug-ins and virtual instruments a lot of posts are related to that) not OS specific

* All other softwares under OS 9

* All other softwares under OS X

* Interface/card audio+MIDI related problems: (a lot of posts are related to that) not platform specific, software related or not

* Mac Hardware and periphericals: CPU, RAM, Fans, power, Harddrive, CDR, etc...hardware only

* Synth, samplers, instruments and sounds: even if connected with software (if gear specific).

* Studio hardware: mixers, effects, compressor, monitors, headphones, wires....hardware only

* Theory and technical: mixing, recording, mastering, digital audio, surround, technology, harmony, etc...

* Developpment: (Busserror's forum) for developpers only

* OpenBar: for the rest

We know there will be cases were the posting choice could balance between two forums, but no system is perfect: at leat this sheme seems to work in most cases and splits things according to the current posts content.

Clear and precises titles and descriptions will certainly help to make this simpliest: May be you, the english-native members could help to write it clearer.

Sorry for my (uncorrected) english

Posted by: kaboombahchuck Wed 6 Nov 2002, 00:10

Well, from what I can tell so far...looks pretty good to me.
The language of it seems fine.
Seems like you folks are basicaly begging for english mods... I would not mind doing that, but my computer skills are very basic, and my spelling,,well.....sucks! So I'm not too shure I'd be the right person for the job.